Fred's problems

[alkaline]

As i am creating the new graphics for my page (to replace the drawings - i'm using povray now), i'm realizing the extent of the difficulties that a bionian would have. There are at least four biological systems that need to cross each other within the body:

- digestive system
- airflow/blood system
- skeletal system/muscles
- nervous system

The nervous system needs to be attached to the other three in order to control them. The blood system needs to be attached to the other three in order to give them energy. The muscle system and digestive system are more "dependent" systems, so they don't have to be attached to all the other parts (except what is already attached to them). There is a big crossing problem here.

Some problems could be alleviated by using an exoskeleton, with the muscles right under the skeletal outside, and maybe breathing holes all over the surface instead of a lung system. But, there would be a problem with the breathing holes would split up the skeleton into a bunch of smaller pieces. A stomach would also be a big problem as far as splitting a bionian up. Maybe the stomach could be on the outside of the bionian. The biggest problem still remains, though - the crossing of the blood system and the nervous system. They both need to be running fast at all times.

I'm starting to think this many problems can't be all solved at the same time, then my wife suggested having a 2d being like a jellyfish. I think its blood is pumped by it moving around. Its structure is supported by the water. Maybe it would only be possible to have 2d beings that lived in the water.

A non-biological problem would be the fact that a bionian would never be able to see anything under the tip of either arm, because his arms completely block the light from under him. He definitely could never see what he was stepping on. This could be really dangerous of there were hostile things on the ground.

[Keiji]

... Isn't it obvious that bionian objects can't cross each other?

As for seeing things on the ground, so what? how many times have you stepped on ants and the like?

[alkaline]

yes it's obvious that they can't, but some solutions have been proposed, like zipper mechanisms for closing sides back together, and for neuron crossings, having cross-curcuits so that signals can cross each other.

Ants don't matter, it's stuff like tacks and holes that matter.

[Keiji]

maybe a bionian could have three eyes - one on the top of his head, one in front underneath his arm, and one behind underneath his other arm (assuming he has one arm behind him)

[Jay]

What about a body based on semipermeable membranes?

The nervous system could run throughout the body, although things like air, and nutrients could pass through the material it was made of. I don't think you would need a digestive sytem or circulatory system if air and food naturally passed throughout the body by diffusion. And you could just stick the lungs anywhere.

[alkaline]

Hmm, maybe that would work. The structure would have to be strong enough to hold the bionian up, but permeable enough so that the molecules could make their way through the structure. The molecules couldn't go in too large of groups, or the structure would be split apart - the molecules could only go one or two at a time.

[Jay]

If this idea holds true: that a bionian's body would need plenty of semipermeable membranes to make up for a lack of circulatory of digestive systems that can't exis in 2d, then what about tetronians? They must have crazy complex systems not possible in 3d, and maybe very few if any semipermeable mebranes.

I think their insides would be much less stable if anything like ours. For example, we already established that two non parallel lines can pass by each other in tetraspace, so the coils of a human intestine would just keep moving back and forth past each other.

[alkaline]

well we need permeable membranes, so i assume tetronians would also. Indeed, they could have quite complex systems. In their brains, they could have whole interconnected modules migrate from one section of the brain to another continuously, while still being interconnected. I don't think things would necessarily move past each other, but they could. Surgery would be easier because things that need to be examined/pulled out could be pulled out without having to cut other things apart. In fact, maybe the only thing that ever needs to be cut is the skin.

[Keiji]

For example, we already established that two non parallel lines can pass by each other in tetraspace, so the coils of a human intestine would just keep moving back and forth past each other.

but you must realise that they are not lines - the "coils" have thickness in all dimensions perpendicular to itself - and also, they are not straight.

[alkaline]

Well, it's like this: since two points can move past each other, then two circles can too. Since two lines can move past each other, two "hoses" can also move past each other. They just have to roll a little farther around.

[Keiji]

so? tetronians would naturally have realmic skin, so they would keep everything in place.

[alkaline]

After i thought about it, they most likely would be kept mostly in place. It would be like a bag of peas - while it is possible for spheres to move past each other, they are packed up and aren't given the possibility of moving around much. But then, if you squish the bag, the peas will move around and be rearranged. Thus, every time a tetronian gets "squished", their insides will get rearranged. For us, our insides have to stay in place or there would be some definite damage.

[Keiji]

precisely what i was trying to say

[alkaline]

but in not as many words - maybe you should elaborate a little more in general so that people can know what exactly you're going for :-P

[Geosphere]

Why in the world are you assuming nerves, digestion, etc?

Do to the way we absorb energy (digestion, etc), in planespace, we would be riddled with holes.

There is no way at all for anything resembling what we call life to exist in any higher or lower dimensions.

If 'beings' exist in either direction, they will have biologies completely inconceivable to us.

In fact, I don't think we could even consider them biologies at all.

[alkaline]

I am hypothesizing such a model in order to test if it was possible or not. I haven't claimed yet that having such systems is possible at all. The issue with holes is a very big problem for bionian beings. However, you can solve certain problems through the use of constructs like zipper-gut mechanisms (something enters, the being zips closed behind it, so the object doesn't split the being in half).

Whether or not is actually possible for beings to exist in higher or lower dimensions, it is still fun to hypothesize about them :-)

If your definition of biology is carbon-based, then yes, they wouldn't be "biologies".

[Geosphere]

Before theorizing about the beings, I think the laws of their universe need to be hammered out. Energy, respiration, locomotion, gravity, magnetism. In all truth, all of those things probably need to be thrown out, and new 'laws' created.

It would be so stunningly complex and theoretical a labor, that we may as well just stick with the little triangle with legs, since this place is more about the concept and not the practicality of such an existance.

[alkaline]

for me, i enjoy both the concept and the practicality - i like to theorize using a simple model, but i also want to develop a separate, more complex model. In this complex model the laws of their universe would need to be hammered out, as you said. There is only so much you can do with a simple model; while a complex model may be difficult, we would gain a lot in the process of creating it.

We would need to start with energy and matter first - and we would need to start with the assumption that stable orbits exist, since it isn't possible for them to.

[Geosphere]

Energy = matter d time

(d being delta)

Being, if no matter every moved, there would be no energy. There would also be no time, as there would be nothing relative to it. Once something moves, it displays energy and all time is created. (much bigger topic there)

I think thatwe have to maintain that as the base theory in any universe, or our little 2d minions cant do anything, and thats just no fun to think about.

After that law is in effect, then we have to hammer out things like attraction to determine what energy and matter are in n+-.

[alkaline]

actually i think matter and energy are equivalent - they are just different states of the same thing. (you know, einstein's whole E=mc[sup]2[/sup] equation). I'm not sure that anyone truly understands the concept of the two being equal.

Absolute zero is matter with no energy, which is actually a paradox, and that's why nothing can actually be absolute zero. We also need time too, for the universe to be dynamic.

well if you define energy as motion of matter, then you already have it defined, and it can't be fundamentally different in a different dimension. It can only appear to act differently because of different laws.

[Geosphere]

Out of lack of ability to see anything else besides time, matter and energy, I agree.

If there were a Grand Unified Theory, then this would probably be easier, because we could just figure out what does/doesn't work in 2d. The problem being that gravity is non-intuitive. No one is sure why it happens. So without sending probes to 2d space, we can't really be sure what results happen there either.

[alkaline]

since we can't send out probes, we will have to guess :-) So, now we have to come up with a grand unified theory. We can just assume particles are attracted to each other, and that is our gravity, and set it aside for now. In realmspace, an EM wave is a transverse electric wave perpendicular to a transverse magnetic wave. Thus, planespace may not have magnetism. In tetraspace, you can have three waves in one - electric, magnetic, and a third force. We just need a name for it.

[Jay]

In realmspace, an EM wave is a transverse electric wave perpendicular to a transverse magnetic wave. Thus, planespace may not have magnetism. In tetraspace, you can have three waves in one - electric, magnetic, and a third force.

Magnetism would have to exist in a 2d world, or all atoms would just clump together in a giant circle.

Maybe electricity and magnetism both exist in planespace, but they are unrelated, unlike here in realmspace. In which case, the third perpendicular wave may be something familiar to us.

I think if sound was the third, it would make for a very noisy universe. But what about light. If everything gave off a radiance of its own, the tetronian universe wouldn't even need stars!

[Geosphere]

Magnetism would have to exist in a 2d world, or all atoms would just clump together in a giant circle.

Huh? How does magnetism affect non magnetic atoms?

If everything gave off a radiance of its own

It does, but in realmspace we don't see it. There's EM and gravity in every object.

[Jay]

Huh? How does magnetism affect non magnetic atoms?

Magnetism is what keeps all matter in this universe intact. The repelling forces of the negatively charged electrons balance out with the gravitational pull of the nuclei to make things stable.

If everything gave off a radiance of its own

It does, but in realmspace we don't see it. There's EM and gravity in every object.

I was talking about a light emission from this special electro-magnetic-light wave, so that atoms themselve would give off light. Maybe photons would orbit the nucleus in addition to electrons.

[alkaline]

Magnetism would have to exist in a 2d world, or all atoms would just clump together in a giant circle.
...
Magnetism is what keeps all matter in this universe intact. The repelling forces of the negatively charged electron balance out witht he gravitational pull to make things stable.

This doesn't make sense to me. You're forgetting the strong force, and also you didn't relate magnetism to the other forces. As far as the forces go, magnetism is one of the minor players.

Maybe electricity and magnetism both exist in planespace, but they are unrelated, unlike here in realmspace. In which case, the third perpendicular wave may be something familiar to us.

I think if sound was the third, it would make for a very noisy universe. But what about light. If everything gave off a radiance of its own, the tetronian universe wouldn't even need stars!

sound can't be, sound is a longitudinal wave through matter. It can't be light, light is an EM wave - it is electricity and magnetism wrapped up in one. In tetraspace, light would be electricity, magnetism, and the third force all wrapped up in one.

[alkaline]

I was talking about a light emission from this special electro-magnetic-light wave, so that atoms themselve would give off light. Maybe photons would orbit the nucleus in addition to electrons.

They wouldn't be photons if they orbited a nucleus. Photons are units of EM waves, of which light is one example. Other examples of EM waves are radio, microwaves, infrared light, ultraviolet light, x-rays, and gamma rays. They all travel in units of photons.

[Jay]

Hmmmmmm I need to think about this a little more. I still think the third wavelength could be something familiar to us but unrelated to EM, but I need to know more.

What part of the atom emits the EM waves? And do electrons follow circular orbits in realmspace?

[Geosphere]

Nearcircular.

[alkaline]

An EM-wave is emmitted when an electron at a particular energy level hops down to an energy level lower. The difference in energy between the two levels is the amount of energy that the photon leaving the atom has (and thus its wavelength). Atoms don't follow linear orbits - when they are around an atom, they form a spherical standing wave, with a size greater than the nucleus. According to the uncertainty principle, you can't know exactly where an electron is at any point in time without changing its velocity.