t.o.e and god

Discussions about the possibility of consciousness, free will, spirits, deities, religions and so on, and how these might interact with time travel, the Big Bang, many worlds and so on.

Postby gerren » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:01 am

No, I wouldnt (you seem to get the idea of me seeing a strong God/being being very strong physically, but i mean mentally). Idea 2 is much more effective because instead of your dad only communicating to you that the C is wrong, he communicates why it is wrong and I would see more love being shown.
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Postby PWrong » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:34 am

And when has God taken either option? He doesn't punish anyone until they die. He didn't do anything to Jesus either, he just let us get away with crucifying him. He hasn't told us anything about how we should behave, unless you count the bible. But to take the father example, that's like having your little brother tell you "Dad says you have to do well in school or he'll whip you". Why should I believe him?
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Postby gerren » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:39 am

He doesn't punish anyone until they die

Remember, we consequentially punish ourselves by our actions (just like stealing something and going to jail)

Also, the little brother point is a very ineresting one. If you are counting the brother as the informational source of God, then that source would play a much bigger role than just "your little brother"
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Postby RQ » Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:05 am

PWrong wrote:
Not if it contradicts their religious scripture, they can't. The Big Bang and Evolution rule out the Abrahamic religions, which is a good chunk of the population right there.

I don't think the church has a problem with contradicting the bible anymore. I read something the other day that supposedly explains the ten commandments. What it really did was fill in some of the gaping holes. For instance "do not kill" apparently includes any kind of assault :roll:.

Well this is actually rooted in the fact that liberalism was created by Christians who were in the clergy. For example it was a Belgian priest who proposed the Big Bang in the first place. There's also Cox and Robinson who spearheaded modern liberal theology. I don't know if Robinson recanted of liberalism by the 70's especially if he published a book like "Redating the New Testament", 1976, which placed the entire New Testament at 40-64 AD, and his unfinished book on the Gospel of John's independence from the Synoptics.

The whole Jesus thing doesn't make sense anyway. I mean, he supposedly died in a noble self-sacrifice, so that God would forgive us for everything. But then he just came back three days later! I don't know where he's supposed to be now, but he's either still here, or he's in heaven where he belongs. Where's the big sacrifice? He went through some pain on the cross, and he spent three days dead. Is that really enough?

That's not why God forgives. In Christian theology Jesus of Nazareth was the only sinless man that ever lived, which would make Him the only person able to offer Himself as an unblemished sacrifice. Pain by itself is meaningless (i.e. the apostle Paul talks about repeated floggings, a shipwreck and a stoning).
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Postby zero » Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:07 pm

Two observations related to the initial question:

First, it's rather complicated to "rule out" something which is never clearly identified at the start. "God" means many different things to many different people, despite the illusion of monolithic belief. What a person says "I believe that God (or a god) exists," this can signify various meanings that are not all the same. That variation can create a great deal of confusion when it is overlooked or passed by without recognition.

If there is no Zeus atop Mount Olympus, then perhaps there is some Jehovah up in the sky, beyond the heavens that surround earth at the center. Then when the heavens are seen not to be a "higher realm" in the sense of altitude in a geocentric universe, and space is found to be not only incredibly vast but also indifferent to the very location of our rocky planet orbiting an average star in the outskirts of one galaxy among billions, then Allah may go hide out in hyperspace instead -- or wherever else you might imagine. The Mormons even place their god on another planet. Human creativity, when it comes to playing hide-and-seek with various gods, appears to be inexhaustible.

So remember that before trying to rule out anything, it is a very good idea to clearly identify just what it is one is attempting to rule out. (And why.)

Second, like Laplace, I have no need of a god hypothesis -- regardless of whether or not "it" is completely ruled out.

To point out that none of the gods are demonstrably required and that there has been no evidence presented for any gods existing outside human imagination is to place the burden of proof right back where it belongs: with those who speculate (or just baldly assert) that brand name God X or God Y-- or just a generic god -- actually exists and dabbles in human affairs or otherwise does anything which makes a difference.
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Re: t.o.e and god

Postby Why? How? » Thu May 29, 2008 5:52 pm

This is going to create massive controversy in this forum but science can't really prove anything.
Why? How?
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Re: t.o.e and god

Postby houserichichi » Thu May 29, 2008 7:15 pm

Science doesn't claim to prove anything, that's the crux, except in the certain case where it's being tested at that exact time given the exact initial conditions. If it made such a claim then you could call it out on false pretenses but the scientist humbly understands that all they do is build up evidence upon evidence and logic upon logic to explain, describe, and understand the universe and the way things exist within it. Religion, on the other hand, claims things without evidence, without logic, and without understanding. While that doesn't necessarily make it untrue, per se, it certainly keeps it to a lower intellectual level than science.

You claim the sky of Mars is pink because it said so in a book you read as a child and studied as an adult. I say the sky of Mars is a whole other colour because of various scientific points that have been studied and proved true countless times. Neither of us knows the other is correct or incorrect until we actually go to Mars and see for ourselves. It turns out the sky of Mars is not pink. Your silly book, though written two thousand years ago and accepted as truth by billions of people, is not filled with truths just because it says it is.
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Re: t.o.e and god

Postby zero » Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:25 pm

Why? How? wrote:This is going to create massive controversy in this forum but science can't really prove anything.

That statement creates nothing more than the impression that you have a very serious and basic misunderstanding of science.
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