<4/sqrt(10), 0, 3/sqrt(3), 1>
<4/sqrt(10), 0, 3/sqrt(3), -1>
<4/sqrt(10), 0, 0, 2>
<4/sqrt(10), 0, 0, -2>
<4/sqrt(10), 0, -3/sqrt(3), 1>
<4/sqrt(10), 0, -3/sqrt(3), -1>
<4/sqrt(10), -4/sqrt(6), 2/sqrt(3), 0>
<4/sqrt(10), -4/sqrt(6), -1/sqrt(3), 1>
<4/sqrt(10), -4/sqrt(6), -1/sqrt(3), -1>
<-1/sqrt(10), 3/sqrt(6), 3/sqrt(3), 1>
<-1/sqrt(10), 3/sqrt(6), 3/sqrt(3), -1>
<-1/sqrt(10), 3/sqrt(6), 0, 2>
<-1/sqrt(10), 3/sqrt(6), 0, -2>
<-1/sqrt(10), 3/sqrt(6), -3/sqrt(3), 1>
<-1/sqrt(10), 3/sqrt(6), -3/sqrt(3), -1>
<-1/sqrt(10), -1/sqrt(6), 2/sqrt(3), -2>
<-1/sqrt(10), -1/sqrt(6), -4/sqrt(3), 0>
<-1/sqrt(10), -5/sqrt(6), 1/sqrt(3), -1>
<-1/sqrt(10), -5/sqrt(6), -2/sqrt(3), 0>
<-6/sqrt(10), 2/sqrt(6), 2/sqrt(3), 0>
<-6/sqrt(10), 2/sqrt(6), -1/sqrt(3), 1>
<-6/sqrt(10), 2/sqrt(6), -1/sqrt(3), -1>
<-6/sqrt(10), -2/sqrt(6), 1/sqrt(3), -1>
<-6/sqrt(10), -2/sqrt(6), -2/sqrt(3), 0>
quickfur wrote:[...] Tentatively, I will use the term "spirallated" for gluing the SOBRs back the "wrong" way (spiral, because it's like you're wrapping a spiral around the ring of octagonal prisms in the 8,8-duoprism), and "gyrated" for shifting the SOBRs to their neighbouring positions on the great circle. So the polychoron with 8 pseudo-rhombicuboctahedra will be the tetraspirallated cantellated tesseract, and the polychoron with 4 "misaligned" rhombicuboctahedra will be the gyrated cantellated tesseract.
[...]
Marek14 wrote:Just looked at the thread after some time Thanks for the off files
Marek14 wrote:Hmm, no new ideas recently, just the realization that any cutting should produce shapes whose vertex figures can be traced on the vertex figure of the original shape (for example rectified 600-cell has an uniform pentagonal prism as vf, and shapes that can be traced there include vfs of pentagonal prism, icosidodecahedron, rhombicosidodecahedron and even a truncated dodecahedron, though this is unlikely to be a clean cut).
EDIT: Toying with your new shape. Seems that there are 2 different types of triangular prisms, 64 of them stand on octahedra and their second base leads into truncated tetrahedra, while 96 has both of their bases on elongated square bipyramids.
Understanding the augmentations now, seems this shape has a complex augmentation/diminishings possible as after removing cube prism you can further remove cube || octagon from the main shape.
Marek14 wrote:I'm trying to compile the list of dihedral angle, but I got this idea: what if you tried to build the polychora primarily from a net of faces instead of cells? Any such net that has only regular faces could be filled in by convex cells, couldn't it?
Marek14 wrote:So, let's look at dihedral angles. Stella is a big help here since its net mode computes dihedral angles automatically.
I include all prisms and antiprisms up to 10, for completeness.
BTW, you shouldn't automatically assume that there can be only 5 faces to an edge -- dihedral angles of some Johnson solids can get quite small.
Now, let's talk "possibilities". Basically, in some Johnson solids, the same dihedral angle exists at several nonequivalent places. I note this. Some of those places might be also assymetrical (i.e. joining two identical polygons, but without an axis of symmetry passing through the edge, so you have to try to fit it in both orientations).
The exact number of possiblities for CRF purposes will have to be checked, some possibilities might be chiral.
For the weird solids (sphenocorona and up) I've given up on describing the edges and counting possibilities...
[...snip huge awesome list...]
Of course, you must also take into account chiral polyhedra:
snub cube, snub dodecahedron, gyroelongated triangular bicupola, gyroelongated square bicupola, gyroelongated pentagonal bicupola, gyroelongated pentagonal cupolarotunda and gyroelongated pentagonal birotunda. Those might count twice in all cases.
quickfur wrote:But how would you ensure that the polygons in the net will form convex cells? And how would you guarantee they lie on a single hyperplane? You might get some polygon nets that are non-planar, then you can't make a valid CRF from it.
Marek14 wrote:So, let's look at dihedral angles. Stella is a big help here since its net mode computes dihedral angles automatically.
I include all prisms and antiprisms up to 10, for completeness.
Wow, cool! That's a long list! Hmm. That's much longer than I expected. I guess I don't know the Johnson solids well enough.BTW, you shouldn't automatically assume that there can be only 5 faces to an edge -- dihedral angles of some Johnson solids can get quite small.
You're right! The smallest dihedral angle in your list is 31.7175, which lets us fit about 11 polyhedra around an edge. I assume that's maximal, though in this case pentagonal cupolas can't join 11 to an edge because the ridges have to alternate between square and decagon, so that means 10 of those things can fit around an edge. Wow. That means a lot more possibilities to consider if we assume more than 3 faces per edge!Now, let's talk "possibilities". Basically, in some Johnson solids, the same dihedral angle exists at several nonequivalent places. I note this. Some of those places might be also assymetrical (i.e. joining two identical polygons, but without an axis of symmetry passing through the edge, so you have to try to fit it in both orientations).
The exact number of possiblities for CRF purposes will have to be checked, some possibilities might be chiral.
For the weird solids (sphenocorona and up) I've given up on describing the edges and counting possibilities...
Yeah, chiral Johnsons did occur to me; I was thinking that the table will be keyed by a pair of integers representing polygon degrees, then the corresponding table entry will be a list of edges. Each edge will point to a particular edge on a particular Johnson solid (the program will have to keep a face lattice for each polyhedron, so that it can easily find adjacent faces, etc.), so that takes care of the non-equivalent cases. But when both polygons are the same, you may have to try both orientations.[...snip huge awesome list...]
Thanks for the list! Are the angle values from Stella? Is there any way of getting more digits for them? One thing I've noticed working with higher-dimensional polytopes is that they tend to be very sensitive to roundoff errors. Get the dihedral angle of one pair of cells slightly off, and the error propagates through the rest of the shape, and it might not close up anymore even though algebraically it does close up. Or it may close up when it's not supposed to due to roundoff error shifting the actual dihedral angle too close to a neighbouring value. (I note that, unfortunately, there are quite a few dihedral angles between the same polygons that are very close to each other.) This may come back to bite us with large shapes like the 600-cell diminishings.Of course, you must also take into account chiral polyhedra:
snub cube, snub dodecahedron, gyroelongated triangular bicupola, gyroelongated square bicupola, gyroelongated pentagonal bicupola, gyroelongated pentagonal cupolarotunda and gyroelongated pentagonal birotunda. Those might count twice in all cases.
Yeah, chiral polyhedra all have to count as two distinct objects. Otherwise we may run into trouble (a CRF may contain both enantiomers as cells in non-equivalent places that cannot be interchanged by a mirror image operation in 4D, for example).
Marek14 wrote:quickfur wrote:But how would you ensure that the polygons in the net will form convex cells? And how would you guarantee they lie on a single hyperplane? You might get some polygon nets that are non-planar, then you can't make a valid CRF from it.
When adding any single polygon, you could make sure it's planar. As for whether they will form convex cells... if you won't allow coplanar polygons, won't they form convex cells automatically?
[...][...] Are the angle values from Stella? Is there any way of getting more digits for them? [...]
[...]
The values are from Stella, and they are, I presume, rounded to six digits. But the exact values are actually not that important -- you can probably get more precise results by building the solids yourself. What's really important is the algebraic relations between different values (I noted this where I could) and situations where multiple solids share the same angle. For example, you notice that all snubs (including snub disphenoid and snub square antiprism) have completely unique values not related to anything else, coronas are also a world of their own, while bilunabirotunda and triangular hebesphenorotunda are actually related to the "more normal" solids.
The values, however, should definitely be exact enough to allow for decisions which edges are possible.
I guess next step would be to enumerate the edges?
I imagine that the key part of the generator will be sieve to eliminate all CRF polychora that were already discovered
Johnson solids are classified pretty well; I suspect CRF polychora will have two lists: raw list ordered, say by number of vertices -> edges -> faces -> cells, and then "taxonomic" list where we'll try to fit them.
Also, I imagine that the 7- and 9- prisms and antiprisms will actually have a huge part in the program: if our hypothesis that no new CRF polychora that use them exist, apart from infinite families and augmented duoprisms, is correct, then any new CRF that contains one of these will also have a "twin" containing the other, which could show as a hint to new infinite families. And if one is found without a twin, then our hypothesis was wrong
Marek14 wrote:Further note: I think we should start with just a "proof of concept" program with limited selection of shapes, then extend it.
Edges with more than 3 cells might present a problem because they are not "rigid" -- 3-cell edge has strictly defined dichoral angles, but 4-cell and more do not (like 4- or more- polygon vertices: compare octahedron's, triangular dipyramid's and pentagonal dipyramid's 4-triangle vertices).
I imagine the end product of the search would be a database with a program attached to search through it, for example by specifying cells which you want/don't want to be present.
This is just my hunch, but I think that the number of anomalous CRF polychora (not related to any uniform) will be bigger then in 3D because there's just significantly more shapes that can be reasonably used. I'm not sure if any are known...
Marek14 wrote:Automatizing the process of generating edges is good idea in any case. As for the nonrigid edges, I wonder if there's a way around that...
Marek14 wrote:Too bad... of course, even the 3-edge enumeration would be a step forward...
wendy wrote:A Johnson polyhedron is made of regular polygons, and is convex, but is not elsewhere included in platonic/uniform/etc.
The current thinking of uniform is equal edge + vertex transitive + uniform surtopes.
The hexagonal pyramid, or the hexagonal
Uniform johnson polychora, for example, would be all convex polychora made of regular polygons, except for the sixty-seven regulars, and their classes.
There are of course, the 92 prisms of the three-dimensional ones.
One might here include joys like xo3of3ox, a polytope made of 4 tri-diminished icosahedra, five tetrahedra, and an octahedron, the various diminished 500chora, the various augmented tesseracts (which are indeed convex, giving diminished, or all of the segmentotopes enumerated by Richard Klitzing (eg cube || icosahedron), and various sectionings of the 500ch.
Beside this, there are the figures like point | x-diminished icosa | x-diminished icosa | point, and all various sections thereof, for which gives at least four separate figures.
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