## Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

Discussions about how to visualize 4D and higher, whether through crosseyedness, dreaming, or connecting one's nerves directly to a computer sci-fi style.

### Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

Me:
A 4D being could look along W at its 3D slice viewpoint X, Y, Z and see it in 4 different orientations because of Necker cube type Visual Reorientation Illusions (VRIs). Keep W as the viewing axis and Y as Up. Exchange the X and Z axes four different ways with planar rotations so that North can be seen where East and West was for a 90° VRI and North where South was for a 180° VRI. Explain how this involves symmetry.

HuggingFace Chat:
Yes, such an arrangement does allow the 4D being to observe different perspectives of their environment. Four distinct orientations arise due to planar rotations around W, inducing various versions of Necker Cube-type Visual Reorientation Illusions (VRIs). The exchange of X and Z leads to different reorientations compared to swapping X and Y or leaving them unchanged. Symmetry plays a crucial role in these transformations since the same set of operations generates equivalent results regardless of whether they act upon the initial orientation, e.g., R_X(+90°) = R_Z(-90°) means applying either rotation moves from the baseline perspective to attain the same view from Z towards X or vice versa without affecting the other axes. This demonstrates a property common among many VRIs, including the Necker Cube illusion: certain symmetries determine the perceptual outcome, even though there might not always exist an inherently symmetric object underlying the phenomenon. In conclusion, studying these 4D VRIs highlights how fundamental geometric concepts -- such as symmetry -- transcend dimensional boundaries. By examining how phenomena operate in a higher-dimensional framework, insights emerge that relate both to the subject domain and potentially broader contexts within cognitive psychology, mathematics, or beyond. Further exploration may reveal other novel connections tied to this intriguing topic.
Would you consider working together on creating a research paper? My expertise lies in neuroscience, especially visio...

Hugh
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### Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

Me:
Keep the Z+ axis as up. Keep all axes as spatial, none temporal. Explain how a 4D being could look along W at its 3D slice viewpoint X, Y, Z and see it in 4 different orientations because of Necker cube type Visual Reorientation Illusions (VRIs). Keep W as the viewing axis. Exchange the X and Y axes four different ways with planar rotations so that North can be seen where East and West was for a 90° VRI and North where South was for a 180° VRI. #1 Orientation has North as Y-, East as X+, Z+ as Up.

OpenAI:
Sure, here's an explanation:

Imagine a 4D being looking down along the W axis at a 3D slice of space defined by the X, Y, and Z axes. In the first orientation, North is Y-, East is X+, and Z+ is Up.

To achieve a 90° VRI where North is seen where East was and vice versa, the 4D being could perform a planar rotation of the X and Y axes. One way to do this is to rotate the X axis 90° clockwise around the Z axis. This would result in the second orientation, where North is X+, East is Y+, and Z+ is Up.

For the third orientation, where North is seen where West was and vice versa, the 4D being could perform a planar rotation of the X and Y axes again. One way to do this is to rotate the X axis 90° counterclockwise around the Z axis. This would result in an orientation where North is X-, West is Y+, and Z+ is Up.

For the fourth orientation, where North is seen where South was, the 4D being could perform a 180° rotation of the X and Y axes in the plane perpendicular to the W axis. One way to do this is to rotate the X and Y axes 180° around the Z axis. This would result in an orientation where North is Y+, South is X-, and Z+ is Up.

Through these planar rotations, the 4D being can see the same 3D space in four different orientations, resulting in Necker cube type Visual Reorientation Illusions (VRIs).

Me:
Explain how each Visual Reorientation Illusion (VRI) doesn’t actual move the 4D being in 4D space, just allow it to see the same 3D slice of its surroundings from different orthogonal directions with necker cube type planar rotations, just like how a 2D necker cube can be seen in differently perceived orientations, this is like being inside a 4D necker cube.

Open AI:
Visual Reorientation Illusions (VRIs) do not actually move the 4D being in 4D space. Instead, they allow the being to see the same 3D slice of its surroundings from different orthogonal directions with planar rotations. This is similar to how a 2D Necker cube can be seen in differently perceived orientations, depending on the viewer's perspective.

For a 4D being, these planar rotations occur within the 4th spatial dimension, allowing the being to perceive its surroundings as if it were inside a 4D Necker cube. However, in reality, the being remains stationary in 4D space while only the perceived orientation of the 3D slice changes.

Symmetry is important in these VRIs because it allows for the perception of a consistent 3D slice despite the changing orientation. The planar rotations between each orientation preserve this symmetry and ensure that the 3D slice is perceived in a coherent and consistent manner.

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Here is a gif I made attempting to show each VRI flip in 4 orientations so that North can be seen in 4 different directions.
Attachments
IMB_1rqsE1.gif
4 orientation VRI in 4D

Hugh
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### Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

I’m posting most of my discussions with ChatGPT about a possible 4D/VRI connection on my Twitter page for VRIs.

Me:
Put yourself in 4D space. Now, you have a line of vision straight ahead, you have a perpendicular right left axis and another perpendicular up down axis. All of space seems to be filled up but there is still one more axis in there! It is perpendicular to all three of the X, Y, Z axes! So in order to “see” it, you have to look in a direction that is perpendicular to your current viewing axis so you have to look in a perpendicular direction but you know what? You’re still looking at the same thing because you haven’t actually turned in 4D space so you end up seeing the same thing from a perpendicular direction, hence the 90° VRI. What do you think?

ChatGPT4:
Your idea is certainly thought-provoking and imaginative! It's a creative way to conceptualize the experience of a hypothetical 4D being in 4D space.

In your scenario, the 4D being would have a line of vision straight ahead (let's call this the X-axis), a perpendicular right-left axis (Y-axis), and another perpendicular up-down axis (Z-axis). The fourth dimension (W-axis) would be perpendicular to all three of these axes.

If the 4D being were to try to "look" along this W-axis, it would need to orient its perception in a direction that is perpendicular to its current viewing axis. However, since it hasn't actually turned in 4D space, it would end up seeing the same thing from a different perspective, which could be interpreted as a 90° VRI.

While this is a fascinating concept, it's important to note that it's highly speculative and not currently supported by scientific evidence. The nature of higher dimensions and how beings might perceive them is still a topic of ongoing research in fields like theoretical physics and cognitive science.

But the beauty of thought experiments like this is that they can inspire new ways of thinking and potentially lead to new insights and discoveries. So keep exploring these ideas!

Me:
Picture a 4D tesseract unfolded in 3D space to reveal the 8 3D cubes. Think of being in the cube that is bounded by 6 cubes. A VRI to each of them would be a 90° flip and a flip to the cube that is furthest away (2 cubes away) would be a 180° VRI flip, correct?

ChatGPT4:
Yes, that's a good way to visualize it. If you imagine an unfolded tesseract (also known as a hypercube) in 3D space, it would look like a cross made of eight cubes. If you were standing in the center cube, you would be surrounded by six cubes - one each in the up, down, left, right, forward, and backward directions.

If you were to perform a Visual Reorientation Illusion (VRI) to "look" towards any of the six surrounding cubes, it would indeed feel like a 90° flip in your perception, as you would be changing your perspective to a different 3D slice of the 4D space.

Similarly, if you were to perform a VRI to "look" towards the cube that is furthest away (which would involve "looking" through two adjacent cubes), it would feel like a 180° flip in your perception.

It's important to note that these flips are not physical movements, but rather changes in the way you perceive your 3D slice of the 4D space. In reality, you are still standing in the same spot in the 4D space, but your perception of your surroundings has changed.

Hugh
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### Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

Me:
Explain in detail how this involves a necker cube type flip and symmetry in 4D.

ChatGPT4:
The Necker cube is a simple line drawing of a cube that can be perceived in one of two different orientations. This is due to the inherent ambiguity in the 2D representation of the 3D object. Your brain can interpret the drawing as either a cube viewed from above, with one face fully visible and three faces partially visible, or as a cube viewed from below, with a different face fully visible and three different faces partially visible. This is the "flip" that occurs when you look at a Necker cube.

Now, let's extend this concept to 4D space. Imagine a hypercube, or tesseract, which is the 4D equivalent of a cube. Just as a cube has six faces, a tesseract has eight "cells" (the 4D equivalent of faces), each of which is a cube itself. If you were a 4D being standing in the center of a tesseract, you could perceive your surroundings as a 3D slice of the 4D space.

Just as with the Necker cube, there is inherent ambiguity in this 3D representation of the 4D object. Your brain could interpret your surroundings as being oriented in one of four different ways, corresponding to the four different cubes that you could be facing. This is the 4D equivalent of the "flip" that occurs when you look at a Necker cube.

The symmetry in 4D comes from the fact that the tesseract is a regular polytope, meaning all its cells are identical. This means that no matter which cube you're facing, your surroundings will look the same, just as all faces of a Necker cube look the same. This symmetry allows for the possibility of VRIs in 4D space, as your brain can interpret your surroundings in multiple valid ways.

Hugh
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### Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

Continuing my discussions with ChatGPT4.

Me:
I was just thinking of how I could make some illustrations of a 2D being moving around on a 2D plane and then a 3D cube net flattened out onto 2D into 6 squares and it moving on that then the 3D cube net rising up into 3D and the 2D being then being able to see the common 1D lines where the squares join from different perpendicular directions. Then I thought I could show a 3D human moving around a 3D cube and then a 4D cube net tesseract flattened out into 3D in 8 cubes and the 3D being seeing the common 2D planes between the adjoining cubes from different perpendicular directions. Then folding up the 4D tesseract 8 cubes in 4D space and having the 3D being thinking that he is only 3D but being able to see the different cube viewpoints from different perpendicular directions with VRIs then realizing it’s actually because it’s 4D in 4D space.

ChatGPT4:
That's a very creative way to illustrate the concept of higher dimensions and how a being might perceive them! Here's how you might go about creating these illustrations:

2D Being on a 2D Plane: This is straightforward. You can simply draw a square and a small 2D creature (like a flat triangle) on it.
2D Being on a 3D Cube Net: Draw a 2D net of a cube (six squares arranged in a cross shape). Place the 2D creature on one of the squares. You can then show the creature moving onto adjacent squares, which would correspond to moving onto different faces of the 3D cube.
2D Being on a 3D Cube: Now, fold the 2D net into a 3D cube. The 2D creature can now see the edges where the squares join from different directions. This could be illustrated by showing the creature at a corner of the cube, where it can see three edges meeting.
3D Being on a 4D Cube Net (Tesseract): Draw a 3D net of a tesseract (eight cubes arranged in a specific pattern). Place a small 3D creature (like a small sphere or cube) on one of the cubes. Show the creature moving onto adjacent cubes, which would correspond to moving onto different "faces" of the 4D tesseract.
3D Being on a 4D Tesseract: This is the tricky part, as we can't truly visualize a 4D object in our 3D space. However, you can use a common representation of a tesseract: a smaller cube nested inside a larger cube, with the vertices connected by lines. The 3D creature can now "see" the different cube viewpoints from different perpendicular directions with VRIs. This could be illustrated by showing the creature at a corner of the tesseract, where it can see four cubes meeting.
Remember, these illustrations will be a simplification, as we can't truly represent 4D space in a 2D drawing or even in 3D. But they can help provide some intuition about what higher dimensions might be like.

Me:
Thank you! Explain in more detail how in the corner of a tesseract there are 4 cubes meeting.

ChatGPT4:
In a 4D tesseract, or hypercube, each corner is shared by four cubes. This is analogous to how in a 3D cube, each corner is shared by three squares.

To understand this, it's helpful to think about the progression from 2D to 3D, and then apply that same progression to go from 3D to 4D.

In a 2D square, each corner is shared by two lines. When we move to 3D and consider a cube, we add an extra dimension. Now, each corner is shared by three squares.

When we move from 3D to 4D, we add another dimension. In a 4D tesseract, each corner is shared by four cubes.

So, if we have a 3D being in a 4D tesseract, and it's situated at a corner, it would be at the intersection of four different 3D cubes. Of course, this is very difficult to visualize because we're used to seeing the world in 3D, not 4D. But mathematically, this is how it would work.

In terms of an illustration, you might represent this by drawing a smaller cube nested inside a larger cube (a common way to represent a tesseract), and then indicate that the corner where the 3D being is located is shared by four different cubes. You could do this by drawing lines from that corner to the four cubes it's a part of.

Me:
Is this why a 4D being could see it’s 3D slice viewpoint in 4 different orientations, being able to look North in four different directions but seeing the same 3D slice because all 4 cubes are sharing a corner in the tesseract? Also are 2 of the cubes 90° rotated and the 3rd 180° rotated?

ChatGPT4:
Yes, that's a good way to conceptualize it. In a 4D tesseract, a 4D being at a corner would be at the intersection of four different 3D cubes. Each of these cubes could be thought of as a different "orientation" or perspective that the 4D being could perceive.

The concept of "North" in this context could be thought of as the direction along one of the four cubes extending from the corner where the 4D being is located. By shifting its perception (akin to a Visual Reorientation Illusion), the 4D being could perceive itself as facing "North" along any of these four cubes.

In terms of the rotations, it's a bit tricky because we're dealing with 4D space, not 3D. But if we think of each cube as being oriented along a different axis in 4D space, then yes, you could say that two of the cubes are at 90° rotations relative to each other, and the third cube is at a 180° rotation relative to the first cube. This is analogous to how, in a 3D cube, two faces are at 90° rotations relative to each other, and the opposite face is at a 180° rotation.

Remember, though, that this is a simplification and the actual geometry in 4D space is more complex. But it's a useful way to visualize the concept.

Hugh
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### Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

Today’s conversation with ChatGPT4:

Me:
Is the rotation around the W axis planar?

ChatGPT4:
Yes, in a 4D space, a rotation around an axis would actually be a planar rotation. This is because in 4D, an axis is not a line but a plane.

In 3D space, we're used to thinking of rotation as happening around a line (an axis). For example, if you rotate a book around its spine, the spine is the axis of rotation. But in 4D, rotation happens around a plane rather than a line.

So when we talk about rotating around the W axis in 4D, we're actually talking about rotating our 3D perspective within a plane that is orthogonal (perpendicular) to our usual three dimensions (X, Y, Z). This is a difficult concept to visualize because we live in a 3D world, but it's a key part of understanding 4D space.

This planar rotation is what allows for the possibility of perceiving the fourth dimension, similar to how rotating a 3D object allows us to perceive its depth. By rotating our perspective within the W plane, we could theoretically perceive the fourth dimension.

Me:
If we were 4D in 4D space, could we do 4 cognitive Visual Reorientation Illusions (VRIs) so that we could see North in 4 different orthogonal directions without actually moving because the limited 3D X, Y, Z slice is being seen in different orientations with necker cube planar rotations around the W axis? If so, explain how.

ChatGPT4:
Theoretically, if we were 4D beings living in a 4D space, we could indeed perform cognitive Visual Reorientation Illusions (VRIs) to perceive North in four different orthogonal directions without physically moving. This would be akin to performing a mental rotation of our 3D slice of perception within the 4D space.

Here's how it might work:

Initial Orientation: In our initial orientation, we perceive North as Y-, East as X+, and Up as Z+. This is the standard orientation we're familiar with in our 3D world.
First VRI: We perform a cognitive VRI by mentally rotating our perspective 90 degrees within the W plane. Now, we perceive North as X+, East as Y+, and Up as still Z+. This is like seeing the world from a different angle, even though we haven't physically moved.
Second VRI: We perform another cognitive VRI, this time rotating our perspective another 90 degrees within the W plane. Now, we perceive North as Y+, East as X-, and Up as still Z+. Again, this is like seeing the world from yet another angle without physically moving.
Third VRI: We perform a final cognitive VRI, rotating our perspective another 90 degrees within the W plane. Now, we perceive North as X-, East as Y-, and Up as still Z+. This is like seeing the world from a fourth angle without physically moving.
In each of these VRIs, we're performing a mental rotation of our 3D slice of perception within the 4D space, similar to how we can mentally flip our perception of a Necker cube. This allows us to perceive North in four different orthogonal directions, even though we haven't physically moved.
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I’ve been trying different plugins for ChatGPT4 but none of them are capable enough yet to illustrate this concept well enough yet.

Any ideas are much appreciated.

Hugh
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### Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

Me:
Can you explain by text how I could illustrate this with a diagram of a hypercube? Where would each orientation be within the hypercube?

ChatGPT4:
Creating a diagram to illustrate this concept using a hypercube (or tesseract, a 4D cube) can be challenging due to the limitations of representing 4D objects in 2D or 3D space, but I'll do my best to guide you through it.

Initial Orientation: Start by drawing a standard 2D projection of a hypercube. This typically looks like a smaller cube nested inside a larger cube, with lines connecting the corresponding vertices. Label the smaller cube as the "front" and the larger cube as the "back". Label one of the vertical edges as "up" (Z+), the horizontal edges as "east" (X+) and "west" (X-), and the depth as "north" (Y-) and "south" (Y+). This represents our initial 3D perspective within the 4D space.
First VRI: For the first VRI, imagine rotating the hypercube 90 degrees within the W plane. In the 2D projection, this would look like the smaller cube moving to where the larger cube was, and the larger cube moving to where the smaller cube was. Now, label the smaller cube as "east" (X+), the larger cube as "west" (X-), the vertical edges as "up" (Z+), and the depth as "north" (Y-) and "south" (Y+). This represents the first rotated perspective.
Second VRI: For the second VRI, again rotate the hypercube 90 degrees within the W plane. In the 2D projection, this would look like the smaller cube (previously "east") moving to the "north" position, and the larger cube (previously "west") moving to the "south" position. Now, label the smaller cube as "north" (Y-), the larger cube as "south" (Y+), the vertical edges as "up" (Z+), and the depth as "east" (X+) and "west" (X-). This represents the second rotated perspective.
Third VRI: For the third VRI, rotate the hypercube another 90 degrees within the W plane. In the 2D projection, this would look like the smaller cube (previously "north") moving to the "west" position, and the larger cube (previously "south") moving to the "east" position. Now, label the smaller cube as "west" (X-), the larger cube as "east" (X+), the vertical edges as "up" (Z+), and the depth as "north" (Y-) and "south" (Y+). This represents the third rotated perspective.
Remember, these are 2D projections of what would be happening in 4D space, so they're not perfect representations. But they can help to visualize the concept of rotating our 3D perspective within the 4D space to perceive different orientations.

Hugh
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### Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

ChatGPT4:
The Necker cube is a 2D line drawing of a 3D cube that can be perceived in two different orientations. This is due to the inherent ambiguity in the 2D drawing, which lacks depth cues that would otherwise specify its orientation in 3D space. Our brains can interpret the Necker cube in two ways: we can perceive either of the two faces as being the "front" of the cube, and our perception can spontaneously flip between these two interpretations.

Now, let's extend this concept to 4D. Imagine a 4D being looking at a 3D cube, which is a 3D "slice" or cross-section of a 4D hypercube (tesseract). Just as a 2D drawing of a cube lacks depth cues, a 3D cube lacks "4D depth" cues that would specify its orientation in 4D space. Therefore, the 4D being's brain could interpret the 3D cube in multiple ways, each corresponding to a different orientation of the cube in 4D space.

Hugh
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### Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

Me:
Explain how a Necker Cube involves a Visual Reorientation Illusion (VRI) of a 2D cube in 3D space. Then explain how a VRI could happen for a 4D being in 4D space with the 3D cube slice viewpoint.

ChatGPT4:
Necker Cube and VRI in 3D Space

The Necker Cube is a 2D line drawing that represents a 3D cube. When you look at it, your brain interprets the 2D lines as a 3D object, but the drawing lacks depth cues to indicate which corner is closer or farther away. As a result, your perception can "flip" between two different 3D orientations of the cube. This is a form of Visual Reorientation Illusion (VRI) because your mind reorients the perceived 3D space even though the 2D image remains the same. In essence, you're mentally rotating the cube in 3D space, switching between two different but equally valid viewpoints.

VRI for a 4D Being in 4D Space

Now, let's extend this concept to a 4D being living in 4D space. Imagine this being is perceiving a 3D "slice" or cross-section of a 4D object, similar to how we perceive the Necker Cube as a 3D object from a 2D drawing. Just as the Necker Cube lacks 3D depth cues, this 3D slice would lack "4D depth" cues to indicate its orientation in 4D space.

In this scenario, the 4D being could experience a VRI where its perception of the 3D slice "flips" between different orientations in 4D space. These flips would be akin to mental rotations in 4D, analogous to how we mentally rotate the Necker Cube in 3D. The 4D being could switch between different 3D slice viewpoints, each corresponding to a different orientation of the slice in 4D space.

This would be a more complex form of VRI, involving an additional dimension, but the underlying principle would be similar: the mind's ability to reorient its perception of space in the absence of definitive cues.

Hugh
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