Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

Discussions about how to visualize 4D and higher, whether through crosseyedness, dreaming, or connecting one's nerves directly to a computer sci-fi style.

Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

You might enjoy this vid I made before I had ever heard of a VRI.
https://youtu.be/n0fdKTaTfdM
PatrickPowers
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Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

PatrickPowers wrote:You might enjoy this vid I made before I had ever heard of a VRI.
https://youtu.be/n0fdKTaTfdM

Well that was fun. Well done.

It would be awesome to see some sort of an animation which would show a VRI and how it could be 4D related.

The turn is an instantaneous one. It is like looking at a Necker Cube flip, but one is actually inside the cube, and it is 3D all around you.

I made a picture kind of explaining it:

If we are actually 4D or higher, and we are surrounded by 4D or higher, but could only see a 3D “slice” of our surroundings at any time, but could see that 3D slice from different directions because of those other available directions, could VRIs be the way that we can do that? Rudy Rucker created a Neck-A-Cube model that would help to peer into 4D and it relies on a necker cube type of “twinkling arrangement” similar to the VRI.

https://www.universetoday.com/149559/since-theres-no-up-or-down-in-space-how-do-our-brains-deal-with-this/

If that universetoday link didn’t work, this might:

https://www.sciencetimes.com/articles/29132/20210115/up-down-direction-space-research-reveals-brains-deal.htm

I’m hoping that someone can help to put all the pieces together and explain how VRIs and higher dimensions could be related.

Hugh
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Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

As far as I know, VRIs involve the firing of Head Direction cells in the brain.

Hugh
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Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

Is there a way to show or animate this fascinating higher dimensional VRI explanation by Phil?

“There's actually a geometric way to explain such a thing. By standing in the same place, looking in the same direction in 3D, it turns out that we have four distinct orientations in 4D, that do not change what we see in 3D. It's quite possible that we can control ourselves in 4D this way, and a VRI flip is one of them.”

Does the answer involve something from this?

I got that from this site:

http://www.cut-the-knot.org/ctk/Tesseract.shtml

Hugh
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Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

Well, maybe, it could be animated. Or, illustrated to some degree which still requires a bit of handwaving and declaring where the analogy works and fails. Maybe the 3D projection of a 3d shape revolving around in 4d? Like a torus, for instance. As the torus revolves, it flattens down to a 2d image at 2 points of the rotation, and expands fully at two other opposing points. Maybe drawing on the idea that the 2d image stays constant, while the rest of the 3d-ness of the shape transforms, sort of shows us how we can revolve around stationary 2-planes like a flag pole. It's a stretch, I dunno ....
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ICN5D
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Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

ICN5D wrote:Well, maybe, it could be animated. Or, illustrated to some degree which still requires a bit of handwaving and declaring where the analogy works and fails. Maybe the 3D projection of a 3d shape revolving around in 4d? Like a torus, for instance. As the torus revolves, it flattens down to a 2d image at 2 points of the rotation, and expands fully at two other opposing points. Maybe drawing on the idea that the 2d image stays constant, while the rest of the 3d-ness of the shape transforms, sort of shows us how we can revolve around stationary 2-planes like a flag pole. It's a stretch, I dunno ....

Interesting possibilities, ICN5D!

The actual flip is like a Necker cube and is instantaneous, so there is less of a revolution and more of an axis interchange.

Like when you see a Necker cube flip it does it all at once and there is no halfway.

Maybe there is a way to show 3 axes of a “3D slice viewpoint” flip various ways to line up with the 4 axes.

I’m thinking we only have a 3D slice limited viewpoint of all higher dimensions because we look along one axis, along with the other two, up/down and right/left so all higher dimensions must be accessed by flipping around the whole of those 3 dimensions as a slice to a whole new orientation at once, with a VRI.

I’m thinking a 90 degree VRI is to an adjacent cube viewpoint and a 180 degree VRI is to the opposite cube viewpoint.

I would love to see this more clearly somehow.

Hugh
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Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

If this is a 2D representation of a perceived 3D Necker Cube which flips orientation along common 1D lines...

I need to show a 3D representation of a 4D Necker Cube which flips orientation along common 2D planes.

Any ideas?

Hugh
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Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

Imagine being 4D in a 4D tetracube, with only a “one 3D slice cube” limited viewpoint of that space. There are all these other different cube viewpoints available within that same space, but they are each only from different directions.

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Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

In the movie Interstellar, Murphy’s bedroom is shown in the tesseract with time as the 4th dimension. If you substitute space as the 4th dimension, you get a hint at what being inside 4D space with a 3D slice view is like. Kind of like the totality of what you can see with VRIs.

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Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/roots-of-unity/nothing-is-more-fun-than-a-hypercube-of-monkeys/

This sculpture is called More Fun than a Hypercube of Monkeys and is explained in the article above.

There is a monkey at the centre of each of the 8 cubes of a tetracube.

As it is rotated, you can see how the monkeys are being rotated around to all of the possible positions within that space.

If we are 4D (or higher) ourselves, in a 4D (or higher) universe, but we only have a limited “3D slice” viewpoint of that space, this is how that 3D slice viewpoint could be turned around within that space to see the various orientations of perceived 3D things from different directions with VRIs.

The idea is that we’re the 4D creature in 4D space but because of our limited 3D viewpoint we can see that perceived 3D space from other directions, and this sculpture shows what the other directions would be which is other orientations of our perceived 3D slice viewpoint with a Necker Cube type of VRI flip.

Hugh
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Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

We sit in what appears to be a 3D room as we look all the way around it, but what if there is a higher dimension to it, how would it appear to us? Perhaps if we were to look at it from that higher dimension, we would see it from that other, new direction.

Hugh
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Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

I’ve been working on a better way to show how we might be seeing higher dimensions when we experience VRIs. We can see the same thing from different directions! It has always amazed me how that is even possible. What drives me to continue is an effort to help science.

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Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

Could this be a way to show the 4 orientations in 4D that do not change what you see in 3D that ICN5D was talking about?
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Hugh
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Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

There is a great animation here of a sphere being reversed in a hypersphere. http://matematita.science.unitn.it/4d/i ... ex_en.html

“To describe the hypersphere, the 4D analogon to the sphere, we can think of two solid tori that are glued together in such a way that the meridians on the surface of one torus coincide with the parallels on the surface of the other one, and viceversa. In the animation meridians and parallels are painted with different colours to emphasize the identification.

A sphere, painted blue outside and pink inside, is in the hypersurface of the hypersphere, inside one torus. We inflate the sphere till it touches the surface of the torus in a meridian. Since the surfaces of the tori are identified, the sphere appears also on the other torus, along a parallel.

We inflate the sphere further and the part on the surface of the tori passes entirely inside the second torus, till the sphere is represented by two disks (in the first torus) which are adjacent to an annulus (inside the second torus).

Now we can deflate the sphere symmetrically and it returns inside the torus where it was at the beginning, but painted pink outside. In other words, it is reversed: the inside surface is now outside and viceversa.”

This kind of reminds me of a 3D slice viewpoint of a 4D being looking at different orientations “all the way around” of that 4D space.

Hugh
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Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

I’d love to see an animation of this, showing a possible VRI connection.

In order for the 2Der to understand the fullness of 3D, he has to take his 2D slice of 3D and turn it "all the way around" the 1D line that he understands into a "new direction". He understands forward/back and right/left, but just has to understand that there is a new perpendicular direction to each of these that is available. Once he realizes that, he can appreciate that there is an up/down that any of his axes can be re-oriented in, and understand the "new space" that is made available because of it.

In order for the 3Der to understand the fullness of 4D, he has to take his 3D slice of 4D and turn it "all the way around" the 2D plane that he understands into a "new direction". He understands forward/back, right/left and up/down, but just has to understand that there is a new perpendicular direction to each of these that is available. Once he realizes that, he can appreciate that there is an ana/kata that any of his axes can be reoriented in, and understand the "new space" that is made available because of it.

Hugh
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Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

The current prevailing opinion is that everything is only 3D and VRIs just bring our perceived Head Direction back to the “correct” position within 3D space.
For anyone who believes that may I ask; before the VRI back to the “correct” position, what was “incorrect” about the first position?
When you come up from a subway and see the world turned around from how you normally do, stop and think, what is actually “wrong” about that particular orientation? Is N/S/E/W within that orientation in the correct directions? Yes, they are. It’s just your perception of where they normally are is different by 90 or 180 degrees. The brain usually automatically turns our perception of the orientation of the world back to how we normally see it with a 90 or 180 degree VRI. The orientations before and after are both correct, it’s just that one is normal for you and the other is not.
With cognitive experimentation, one learns that there is a whole circle of extra ways that one can turn the perception of the orientation of the world around to, leading to four different orientations here on Earth and up in space with no gravity, there is a whole sphere of extra ways leading to twenty four unique orientations of the world in space. Each perceived HD orientation is uniquely mapped in your brain and your memories are linked specifically to the perceived HD orientation that you were in at the time.
Regardless of whether or not there exists “outside” of you a higher dimension than 3D, there is a perceived higher dimension than 3D of what is outside of you within your brain. The existence of differently perceived HD orientations of the same space with corresponding linked memories proves that.
My own belief is that the perception of that higher dimension is a real one.
I hope that as more people learn to experience cognitive VRI ability, and as more research is done, that the reality of that higher dimension outside of us will be proven.

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Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

What I’ve wanted to be able to show is ICN5D’s explanation of how VRIs may be explained geometrically.

He said in a public Facebook post:

Have any of you had a VRI experience? It's called a Visual Reorientation Illusion, and many people have had them as kids, or continue to have them, controllable or uncontrollably. It 's basically what you would feel if by looking in the same direction, and you feel as if everything has rotated 90 or 180 degrees. As if North has been interchanged with east or south, without physically doing so. Same surrounding, same looking direction, but you feel as though the whole world has been flipped into other directions, mysteriously.

There's actually a geometric way to explain such a thing. By standing in the same place, looking in the same direction in 3D, it turns out that we have four distinct orientations in 4D, that do not change what we see in 3D. It's quite possible that we can control ourselves in 4D this way, and a VRI flip is one of them.”

So today I was chatting with Open.AI and asked it to explain the possible geometry involved.
—————
“Explain the four possible configurations of the 3D slice viewpoint orientations of a 4D being on a 4D world if you constrain the up/down axis, due to the gravity providing a “down” cue.”

It said:
“If the up/down axis is constrained, the 3D slice viewpoint of a 4D being can only change orientation in the remaining three axes: forward/backward, right/left, and ana/kata. This leads to four possible configurations of the 3D slice viewpoint orientations of a 4D being:

1. Forward-backward and right-left are switched: In this configuration, what was previously forward becomes backward, and what was previously right becomes left. This configuration can occur if the 4D being performs a 4TT along the forward-backward and right-left axes.
2. Forward-backward and ana-kata are switched: In this configuration, what was previously forward becomes ana, and what was previously backward becomes kata. This configuration can occur if the 4D being performs a 4TT along the forward-backward and ana-kata axes.
3. Right-left and ana-kata are switched: In this configuration, what was previously right becomes ana, and what was previously left becomes kata. This configuration can occur if the 4D being performs a 4TT along the right-left and ana-kata axes.
4. Forward-backward, right-left, and ana-kata are all switched: In this configuration, all three axes are switched, resulting in a complete inversion of the 3D slice viewpoint. This configuration can occur if the 4D being performs a 4TT along all three remaining axes.”

“Would 3 of those VRIs be to adjacent 90 degree orientations and the 4th one be to an opposite 180 degree orientation?”

It said:
“Yes, that is correct. The three VRIs would be to adjacent 90-degree orientations, while the fourth one would be to the opposite 180-degree orientation.”

—————

By the way, a 4TT is where you do a cognitive VRI so that your perceived North becomes where East, South or West was.

I’d love to be able to show this explanation in a picture format.

Hugh
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Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

Here’s another attempt to have Open.AI explain:

Explain the 4 possible orientations of the 3D slice viewpoint of a 4D being on a 4D world. Do not change or reorient the perceived Up/Down axis due to gravity providing a constantly perceived “down” cue. Use the names of the remaining 3 axes as North/South, East/West, Ana/Kata. Explain how 3 of the VRIs are to adjacent 90 degree orientations and the fourth one to the opposite 180 degree orientation. Explain how North may be perceived in 4 different directions, if it is perceived as the “front/back” axis.

Sure, I can explain that.

When the perceived up/down axis is fixed due to gravity, there are still four possible orientations for a 4D being's 3D slice viewpoint on a 4D world. Let's label the perceived up/down axis as the "Z" axis, and the remaining three axes as the "X", "Y", and "W" axes.

The four possible orientations are:

"North" is aligned with the X-axis: In this orientation, the 3D slice viewpoint is facing towards the "North" of the world, which is aligned with the X-axis. The Y-axis is aligned with the left/right direction, the W-axis is aligned with the front/back direction, and the Z-axis is aligned with the up/down direction.
"North" is aligned with the Y-axis: In this orientation, the 3D slice viewpoint is facing towards the "North" of the world, which is aligned with the Y-axis. The X-axis is aligned with the left/right direction, the W-axis is aligned with the front/back direction, and the Z-axis is aligned with the up/down direction.
"North" is aligned with the W-axis: In this orientation, the 3D slice viewpoint is facing towards the "North" of the world, which is aligned with the W-axis. The X-axis is aligned with the left/right direction, the Y-axis is aligned with the front/back direction, and the Z-axis is aligned with the up/down direction.
"North" is aligned with the negative W-axis: In this orientation, the 3D slice viewpoint is facing towards the "North" of the world, which is aligned with the negative W-axis. The X-axis is aligned with the left/right direction, the Y-axis is aligned with the front/back direction, and the Z-axis is aligned with the up/down direction.
In each of these orientations, three VRIs are to adjacent 90 degree orientations and the fourth one is to the opposite 180 degree orientation.

Now, if "North" is perceived as the "front/back" axis instead of the "X", "Y", or "W" axis, then there would still be four possible orientations for the 3D slice viewpoint, but the labeling of the axes would be different. For example, if "North" is perceived as the "front" axis, then the four possible orientations would be:

"North" is aligned with the Y-axis
"North" is aligned with the negative Y-axis
"North" is aligned with the W-axis
"North" is aligned with the negative W-axis
In each of these orientations, "North" is aligned with the front direction, and there would still be three VRIs to adjacent 90 degree orientations and the fourth one to the opposite 180 degree orientation.

Hugh
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Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

So would a 4D being be able to do VRIs of its 3D slice viewpoint, on a 4D world in 4D space, look “forward” and see “North” in 4 different orthogonal directions, where “up/down” remains the exact same?

Open.AI:
Yes, that's correct. A 4D being on a 4D world would be able to perform VRIs of its 3D slice viewpoint and perceive "North" in four different orthogonal directions, while still perceiving "up/down" in the same direction. This is because in 4D space, there are four orthogonal directions, so the "front/back" axis can be oriented in four different directions relative to the other three axes. However, the "up/down" axis would remain the same regardless of the orientation of the "front/back" axis.

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Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

Explain the following: In order for the 2Der to understand the fullness of 3D, he has to take his 2D slice of 3D and turn it "all the way around" the 1D line that he understands into a "new direction". He understands forward/back and right/left, but just has to understand that there is a new perpendicular direction to each of these that is available. Once he realizes that, he can appreciate that there is an up/down that any of his axes can be re-oriented in, and understand the "new space" that is made available because of it.

Open.AI:
This statement is an analogy that explains how a 2-dimensional (2D) being, or "2Der", would perceive and understand the concept of a third dimension (3D). The analogy suggests that a 2Der would only be able to perceive and understand two dimensions, which are forward/backward and right/left.

In order for the 2Der to understand the fullness of 3D, they would need to take their 2D slice of 3D and turn it "all the way around" the 1D line (a straight line) that they understand into a "new direction." This new direction represents the third dimension, which is perpendicular to the two dimensions that the 2Der is already familiar with.

By realizing this new direction, the 2Der can appreciate that there is an up/down dimension that any of their existing two axes can be re-oriented in. This understanding allows the 2Der to grasp the concept of a "new space" that is made available because of the third dimension, which they previously were unable to perceive.

In essence, the analogy suggests that just as a 2Der needs to rotate their 2D slice of 3D to understand the concept of a third dimension, a human may need to rotate their 3D slice of 4D to understand the concept of a fourth dimension. By doing so, we can perceive a new direction and appreciate the additional space that is available in the fourth dimension.

Explain the following: In order for the 3Der to understand the fullness of 4D, he has to take his 3D slice of 4D and turn it "all the way around" the 2D plane that he understands into a "new direction". He understands forward/back, right/left and up/down, but just has to understand that there is a new perpendicular direction to each of these that is available. Once he realizes that, he can appreciate that there is an ana/kata that any of his axes can be reoriented in, and understand the "new space" that is made available because of it.

Open.AI:
The statement is describing how a 3D being, such as a human, can comprehend the fullness of 4D space. It starts by stating that the 3Der needs to take their 3D slice of 4D space and turn it "all the way around" the 2D plane that they understand into a "new direction". This means that the 3Der needs to understand that there is a new perpendicular direction to each of the three dimensions they already know.

The statement then goes on to explain that once the 3Der realizes this, they can appreciate that there is an ana/kata direction that any of their axes can be reoriented in. Ana/kata refers to the fourth dimension in 4D space. It is important for the 3Der to understand this concept so they can comprehend the "new space" that is made available because of it.

In summary, the statement is suggesting that in order for a 3Der to comprehend the fullness of 4D space, they need to understand that there is a new dimension perpendicular to the three dimensions they already know, and once they comprehend this, they can understand the ana/kata direction and the new space that is made available because of it.

Hugh
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Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

In order for a 3Der to comprehend the fullness of 4D space, they need to understand that there is a new dimension perpendicular to the three dimensions they already know, and once they comprehend this, they can understand the ana/kata direction and the new space that is made available because of it. Explain how a 3Der could understand that it has access to 4D by being able to reorient its 3 perceived axes along the Ana/Kata axis in 4D using VRIs in 90 or 180 degree flips, looking North and Forward, while keeping the up/down axis the same due to gravity. Then they could realize that they are actually 4D in 4D space because of this ability. This is because a 4D being on a 4D world would be able to perform VRIs of its 3D slice viewpoint and perceive "North" in four different orthogonal directions, while still perceiving "up/down" in the same direction. This is because in 4D space, there are four orthogonal directions, so the "front/back" axis can be oriented in four different directions relative to the other three axes. However, the "up/down" axis would remain the same regardless of the orientation of the "front/back" axis.

Open.AI:
To further clarify, a 3Der could understand their access to 4D by realizing that their ability to perform VRIs in 90 or 180 degree flips and perceive "North" in different directions is actually a manifestation of their 4D nature. By reorienting their perceived axes along the Ana/Kata axis in 4D, they are essentially experiencing a different perspective of the same 4D space. This means that even though they may only perceive 3 dimensions, they are actually existing in a higher-dimensional space, and their perception is limited to a 3D slice of that space.

In essence, the ability to reorient one's perceived axes along the Ana/Kata axis in 4D is a way of accessing the fullness of 4D space and understanding that there is more to reality than what is initially perceived.

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Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

Explain the 4 possible configuration of axes of a 4D being’s 3D slice viewpoint in 4D space with VRIs, in 90 or 180 degree planar necker cube type reorientations, keeping the up/down axis (Y) the same due to gravity, and the forward/back axis (Z) the same. Use the names of the other axes as right/left (X) and ana/kata (W). Explain how the presence of an extra 4D axis allows the 4D being to see its 3D perceived slice in 4 different orientations as a result of the limited 3D slice viewpoint of the 4D being, which result in his perceived orientation of North/South and East/West being turned around with a VRI. Explain which 3 orientations involve a 90 degree VRI to an adjacent orientation and which one involves a 180 degree VRI, to the opposite orientation.

Open.AI:
Certainly! A 4D being's 3D slice viewpoint in 4D space can have four possible configurations of axes with VRIs, in 90 or 180 degree planar necker cube type reorientations. The up/down axis (Y) is kept the same due to gravity, and the forward/back axis (Z) is also the same. The other two axes are named right/left (X) and ana/kata (W).

The presence of an extra 4D axis (ana/kata) allows the 4D being to see its 3D perceived slice in four different orientations. This is due to the limited 3D slice viewpoint of the 4D being, which results in their perceived orientation of North/South and East/West being turned around with a VRI. The planar necker cube type flips occur because the 4D being is only able to perceive a 3D slice of the 4D space they inhabit.

There are three orientations that involve a 90 degree VRI to an adjacent orientation. These orientations are:

North/South (Z) -> East/West (X)
East/West (X) -> South/North (Z)
South/North (Z) -> West/East (X)
The fourth orientation involves a 180 degree VRI to the opposite orientation, and it is:
4. West/East (X) -> North/South (Z)

I hope this explanation is helpful!

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Re: Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

Explain it the same way but also include that North is being perceived where East, South and West was, and exactly how this happens for each orientation.

Open AI:
Sure! Let's consider each orientation of the 3D slice and how it would appear to a 4D being:

Orientation 1 (North in the positive W direction, Up/Down along Y, Forward/Back along Z, and Right/Left along X): In this orientation, the 3D slice is aligned with the W, Y, Z axes. The 4D being perceives North as being in the positive W direction, East in the positive X direction, South in the negative W direction, and West in the negative X direction.
Orientation 2 (North in the negative W direction, Up/Down along Y, Forward/Back along Z, and Right/Left along -X): In this orientation, the 3D slice is aligned with the -W, Y, Z axes. The 4D being perceives North as being in the negative W direction, East in the negative X direction, South in the positive W direction, and West in the positive X direction.
Orientation 3 (North in the positive X direction, Up/Down along Y, Forward/Back along Z, and Right/Left along -W): In this orientation, the 3D slice is aligned with the X, Y, Z axes. The 4D being perceives North as being in the positive X direction, East in the positive W direction, South in the negative X direction, and West in the negative W direction.
Orientation 4 (North in the negative X direction, Up/Down along Y, Forward/Back along Z, and Right/Left along W): In this orientation, the 3D slice is aligned with the -X, Y, Z axes. The 4D being perceives North as being in the negative X direction, East in the negative W direction, South in the positive X direction, and West in the positive W direction.
In each orientation, the 3D slice is oriented along a different set of 3D axes with respect to the 4D axes. The necker cube reorientation happens as the 4D being shifts its perspective from one orientation to another, perceiving North as being in a different direction each time. This is due to the fact that the 3D slice is a projection of a 4D object, and depending on which 3D axes are aligned with the 4D axes, the perceived direction of North changes.

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