Anyway, there could be another way to detect the existence of a fourth dimension.
Suppose Bob puts a light bulb on top of Fred's world. Fred will see a light-emitting circle appear out of nowhere. Using simple geometry, Fred will deduce that the brightness should be inversely proportional to the distance from the light. However, if he actually carries out the measurments, he will find that brightness instead decreases according to an inverse square law.
Similarly, if we found something which varied according to an inverse cube law, it might be evidence of a fourth dimension (although there could be other explanations). The fact that gravitational and electrostatic forces, as well as brightness, are experimentally found to follow an inverse-square law could be evidence that there is no fourth spatial dimension (although there could be a reason why neither of these can leave our 3-space).
A way we could interact with a 4D universe
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by jinydu » Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:15 am
It would be easy to interact with a lower dimension than the one we live in. As said in the webpage, if we could just stick our finger into a 2D world, the 2D beings would observe a circle appear out of nowhere. After the novelty wore off, this could be used a means of communication. We could even talk directly to the 2D beings by positioning ourselves so that the middle of our mouthes lies in the 2D plane.
Communicating with 4D beings would be even easier, since they could see everything that goes on in our universe, including what I'm typing now and what's going on inside my computer.
However, one potential problem is that even after we find a 2D universe (or tetronians find our universe), we would have to locate the intelligent 2D civilization (assuming it exists). The webpage seemed to imply, based on the diagrams, that Fred's world is little more than his own house, making it easy for Bob to find him. However, Bob would have a much more difficult time finding Fred if Fred lived on a planet millions of times larger than Fred's house house. It would be even more difficult if that planet was only one tiny speck out of a whole universe. It wouldn't help much if Fred's entire universe was scaled down to fit on Bob's wall, since Fred's house would be scaled down to a very small size. A single speck of 3D dust would then probably destroy Fred's entire planet.
What if we assume that Fred is large enough that he doesn't get injured when a 3D fly lands on him (or his stomach)? Then, his whole universe would be MUCH larger than the 3D Earth. Imagine looking for someone's house on a sheet of paper the size of the solar system (which is almost certainly a HUGE underestimate). Of course, you might be very lucky, and that person's house happens to be right inside your living room, but that's not very likely.
The same thing goes for tetronians trying to find our civilization. They would either have to invent some unbelievably powerful microscope and scan a reasonably sized area (a more accurate word would be volume), or they would have to locate a reasonably large object out of an incredibly vast universe, or something in between (or perhaps even more towards one of the extremes). On the other hand, they might just be very lucky and happen to have our (4D-thin) Earth passing right through their living room.
Communicating with 4D beings would be even easier, since they could see everything that goes on in our universe, including what I'm typing now and what's going on inside my computer.
However, one potential problem is that even after we find a 2D universe (or tetronians find our universe), we would have to locate the intelligent 2D civilization (assuming it exists). The webpage seemed to imply, based on the diagrams, that Fred's world is little more than his own house, making it easy for Bob to find him. However, Bob would have a much more difficult time finding Fred if Fred lived on a planet millions of times larger than Fred's house house. It would be even more difficult if that planet was only one tiny speck out of a whole universe. It wouldn't help much if Fred's entire universe was scaled down to fit on Bob's wall, since Fred's house would be scaled down to a very small size. A single speck of 3D dust would then probably destroy Fred's entire planet.
What if we assume that Fred is large enough that he doesn't get injured when a 3D fly lands on him (or his stomach)? Then, his whole universe would be MUCH larger than the 3D Earth. Imagine looking for someone's house on a sheet of paper the size of the solar system (which is almost certainly a HUGE underestimate). Of course, you might be very lucky, and that person's house happens to be right inside your living room, but that's not very likely.
The same thing goes for tetronians trying to find our civilization. They would either have to invent some unbelievably powerful microscope and scan a reasonably sized area (a more accurate word would be volume), or they would have to locate a reasonably large object out of an incredibly vast universe, or something in between (or perhaps even more towards one of the extremes). On the other hand, they might just be very lucky and happen to have our (4D-thin) Earth passing right through their living room.
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by jinydu » Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:01 am
Geosphere wrote:Why do you assume such size, and not that the 4D universe is but a spinning quanta we have yet to discover?
I assume that you mean "very small".
It just seems "inelegant" to me that the 4D universe could be smaller than the 3D universe. Wouldn't it seem strange if the 2D universe was a huge plane and the 3D universe was just a tiny little cube passing through it? It would mean that most of the 2D universe has no 3D space surrounding it. Although I admit it is logically consistent, that image simply seems rather awkward to me, since in my mind, the 2D universe should be completely surrounded by the 3D universe. In any case, if the 4D universe was smaller than an atom, the 4D beings would be MUCH smaller still, FAR beyond the limits of technology in the forseeable future. Thus, we would have no way of communicating with them. In order for the tetronians to be large enough to interact with, the 4D universe would have to be at least macroscopic size.
However, as for the size of the 4D beings, that's a totally different thing. I suppose that if the tetronians were the size of an atom, it could be possible to communicate with them simply by moving around atoms. Using scanning tunneling microscopes (STMs) as well as some other sophisticated instruments, its already possible to manipulate individual atoms. I remember from somewhere that during a lunchbreak, someone built a figure of a human out of individual atoms as a joke. However, if tetronians were smaller than about 10^-18 m, we would have problems because of the limitations of our technology (and lack of appropriate particles to use).
Even so, however, we would run into a similar problem. If a small part of the 3D universe happens to stick out into the 4th dimension, the chances that that part is close enough to Earth so that we can interact with it is very small. In other words, the "gateway" to the fourth dimension would almost certainly be in some far off corner of the universe, billions of light years from Earth, far beyond the range of any robots we could send, let alone humans.
On the other hand, if the 4D universe is as large as our 3D universe, we still have problems because the tiny tetronians could probably colonize only a very small "volume" of hyperspace, and that "volume" is unlikely to intersect with our civilization (since our universe is so large and our civilization is so small).
In relation to your question, the "spinning quanta"'s intersection with our 3D universe is much more likely to be somewhere in intergalatic space than sitting conveniently inside a physicist's laboratory.
It seems a "fine tuned" universe might be the only way to communicate with Emily...
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by PWrong » Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:45 pm
To many things for me to quote there, but you've pointed out a lot of problems with the idea that the fourth dimension is already there, waiting to be discovered. With this passive approach we either have to travel to the end of the universe or just sit and wait for the fourth dimension to appear in the kitchen. There's no reason why tetraspace should just occur naturally anyway. My idea was basically the solution to these problems. I'll explain what my idea would do now, since I've already explained how we could do it with string theory.
Basically we assume that our universe is entirely 3D, with no 4D "bumps" anywhere. But it does have a very small trength. Not zero, but about the Planck Length i.e. too small to be measured. To create a 4th dimension in our own backyard, all we need to do is extend this trength somehow. Then we have a house-sized tetracubic space intesecting our universe that wasn't there before. This image does seem very awkward and unlikely if we assume it occured naturally, but it's better to imagine the tetracube as being an entirely manmade creation. It' s a bit like this: It's hard to imagine that there's life on the moon, but it's not hard to imagine that there's life on the moon because we put it there:D
So in effect, the intersection is much more likely to be sitting conveniently in a physicist's laboratory, because we will one day be able to put it there.
Another benefit is that we can probably figure out how our man-made tetraspace will interact with us without having to actually do it. We could even do some of the work with simple geometry. There's no annoying infinities and zeros involved, because our universe is 1 Planck Length trong.
Here's the basics I've worked out so far. To make it easier, don't visualise a cube sitting on a piece of paper, because you will think of the paper as being infinitely thin. Instead, imagine you're crawling on the ground becuase the ceiling is only inches from your back. You can move freely in 2 dimensions, and you know that there is a 3rd dimension, but it's effectively non-existent. That's what the unverse is really like.
The 4D universe will intersect with ours in any shape or size, provided we have a laboratory big enough to contain it and enough energy to open up the 4th dimension.
Let's presume the 4D universe intersects us through a simple room in a building. The room can have doors, so any trionian below a certain size can enter the 4th dimension.
Anything that goes through the door simply gets sucked into the 4th dimension, and will probably instantly disintegrate or maybe explode. We probably won't be sending many people in there.
We can send light and other subatomic particles through, but they won't necessarily come back out. They will hit the wall on the other side, and bounce back towards the door. But the courseness of the wall will send the light on a slightly different path, so it will end up inside.
Whole objects can't come out of the door, because tetronian objects won't fit in our universe and trionian objects can't exist inside. But all matter is made of the same particles, which can fit through the door. So if there were tetronian objects and a source of light in the 4D space, light could reflect off and come out. However, the light will come from all directions, so we get a projection that looks just like a picture of a tetronian object. e.g. a hypercube will look just like our projections of a hypercube. This will easily get confusing though, so we'll need computer programs to analyse the objects.
I think you'll agree though, that making our own 4th dimension would be a lot more convenient, as long as it's possible.
Basically we assume that our universe is entirely 3D, with no 4D "bumps" anywhere. But it does have a very small trength. Not zero, but about the Planck Length i.e. too small to be measured. To create a 4th dimension in our own backyard, all we need to do is extend this trength somehow. Then we have a house-sized tetracubic space intesecting our universe that wasn't there before. This image does seem very awkward and unlikely if we assume it occured naturally, but it's better to imagine the tetracube as being an entirely manmade creation. It' s a bit like this: It's hard to imagine that there's life on the moon, but it's not hard to imagine that there's life on the moon because we put it there:D
So in effect, the intersection is much more likely to be sitting conveniently in a physicist's laboratory, because we will one day be able to put it there.
Another benefit is that we can probably figure out how our man-made tetraspace will interact with us without having to actually do it. We could even do some of the work with simple geometry. There's no annoying infinities and zeros involved, because our universe is 1 Planck Length trong.
Here's the basics I've worked out so far. To make it easier, don't visualise a cube sitting on a piece of paper, because you will think of the paper as being infinitely thin. Instead, imagine you're crawling on the ground becuase the ceiling is only inches from your back. You can move freely in 2 dimensions, and you know that there is a 3rd dimension, but it's effectively non-existent. That's what the unverse is really like.
The 4D universe will intersect with ours in any shape or size, provided we have a laboratory big enough to contain it and enough energy to open up the 4th dimension.
Let's presume the 4D universe intersects us through a simple room in a building. The room can have doors, so any trionian below a certain size can enter the 4th dimension.
Anything that goes through the door simply gets sucked into the 4th dimension, and will probably instantly disintegrate or maybe explode. We probably won't be sending many people in there.
We can send light and other subatomic particles through, but they won't necessarily come back out. They will hit the wall on the other side, and bounce back towards the door. But the courseness of the wall will send the light on a slightly different path, so it will end up inside.
Whole objects can't come out of the door, because tetronian objects won't fit in our universe and trionian objects can't exist inside. But all matter is made of the same particles, which can fit through the door. So if there were tetronian objects and a source of light in the 4D space, light could reflect off and come out. However, the light will come from all directions, so we get a projection that looks just like a picture of a tetronian object. e.g. a hypercube will look just like our projections of a hypercube. This will easily get confusing though, so we'll need computer programs to analyse the objects.
I think you'll agree though, that making our own 4th dimension would be a lot more convenient, as long as it's possible.
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by jinydu » Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:58 am
I suppose that could be done, if your assumptions are correct.
But what would be the purpose of creating such a tetraspace (I assume it would take lots of expensive equipment)? We wouldn't be able to communicate with tetronian beings, and we couldn't explore it with humans or machines.
On the other hand, if it is possible to give space itself additional trength, why not humans and machines too?
But what would be the purpose of creating such a tetraspace (I assume it would take lots of expensive equipment)? We wouldn't be able to communicate with tetronian beings, and we couldn't explore it with humans or machines.
On the other hand, if it is possible to give space itself additional trength, why not humans and machines too?
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by PWrong » Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:27 am
jinydu wrote:I suppose that could be done, if your assumptions are correct.
But what would be the purpose of creating such a tetraspace (I assume it would take lots of expensive equipment)? We wouldn't be able to communicate with tetronian beings, and we couldn't explore it with humans or machines.
We couldn't communicate with them because there wouldn't be anything there. We also couldn't send humans or machines in, because they'd collapse or explode. But we would be able to send light and particles of matter. Gradually, we could learn how to combine particles in tetraspace until we find simple atoms that don't collapse. We could create a periodic table for tetraspace, then form 4D molecules, and gradually work from the bottom up towards actual objects. The first man-made tetraspace will probably be small, but we could get a bigger one.
If that proves to be too difficult, we could always use it for waste disposal
. There would be plenty of room inside, and radiation would find it difficult to escape. Not impossible, but most of the radiation would be confined to the room. There's still no infinity or zero, so everything stays consistent.If we could somehow create 4D beings inside (or more likely, a 4D version of a computer), we could communicate with it using anything we want, and it could communicate back to us using anything tarrow enough to fit into our dimension. So it can use light, magnetism, electrons or maybe even sound, but not 4D bullets, fortunately.
jinydu wrote:On the other hand, if it is possible to give space itself additional trength, why not humans and machines too?
Humans and machines are composed of fundamental particles, which are either 0-dimensional points (in quantum mechanics) or 1-dimensional strings(in string theory). The only reason we're 3D is that our particles are confined to a universe with only 3 unconstricted dimensions. If we walked into the room ourselves, our particles would be unrestricted by the 4th dimension, and we'd simply fall apart.
The only way we could actually experience living in the 4th dimension is if we could translate our consciousness into a 4D computer or something along those lines. Not very likely.
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by jinydu » Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:45 am
PWrong wrote:If we could somehow create 4D beings inside (or more likely, a 4D version of a computer), we could communicate with it using anything we want, and it could communicate back to us using anything tarrow enough to fit into our dimension. So it can use light, magnetism, electrons or maybe even sound, but not 4D bullets, fortunately.
Amazing! We usually tend to think of tetronians as being fundamentally "superior", in the sense that we usually think of ourselves as being be completely at their mercy (ex. Emily and Bob). But in this case, they would be at our mercy (that is, if we cut funding to the people who maintain the tetraspace).
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by PWrong » Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:22 pm
That's even more far-fetched than my idea! . We could probably create a fifth dimension inside, assuming we could create the 4th (in fact, it might be easier to start by releasing all 10 dimensions, then restricting them one by one until we get to the fourth) but there isn't much chance of 4D life evolving to the point that it can do it without our help. We can't yet create artificial life in our own dimension, let alone construct it out of fundamental atomic particles in the fourth dimension, using an entirely unknown form of chemistry. Then we have to wait for the artificial life to evolve into an intelligent creature, then develop tools and technology, entirely from objects we give them.
There's much more terrifying things that could go wrong. For one thing, putting an object into the 4D room could very likely result in an explosion. All the extra freedom would probably result in atoms being split apart, creating energy via E=mc^2. Therefore any large object we put into the fourth dimension could instantly become an atom bomb. We could always harness the energy, turning the fourth dimension into a quick nuclear power plant, that can use any element for fuel. That's a boring application though. It's also possible that once released, the fourth dimension will be able to expand, throwing off its shackles, spreading (at light speed) through the whole universe, disentangling all matter and turning us all into 4D soup.
If you want even more science fiction, this could have already happened to an alien civilisation in another galaxy. The edge of the fourth dimension could be approaching us right now, and since it's approaching at light speed, we'll never know until it gets here. :twisted:
. We could probably create a fifth dimension inside, assuming we could create the 4th (in fact, it might be easier to start by releasing all 10 dimensions, then restricting them one by one until we get to the fourth) but there isn't much chance of 4D life evolving to the point that it can do it without our help. We can't yet create artificial life in our own dimension, let alone construct it out of fundamental atomic particles in the fourth dimension, using an entirely unknown form of chemistry. Then we have to wait for the artificial life to evolve into an intelligent creature, then develop tools and technology, entirely from objects we give them.
There's much more terrifying things that could go wrong. For one thing, putting an object into the 4D room could very likely result in an explosion. All the extra freedom would probably result in atoms being split apart, creating energy via E=mc^2. Therefore any large object we put into the fourth dimension could instantly become an atom bomb. We could always harness the energy, turning the fourth dimension into a quick nuclear power plant, that can use any element for fuel. That's a boring application though. It's also possible that once released, the fourth dimension will be able to expand, throwing off its shackles, spreading (at light speed) through the whole universe, disentangling all matter and turning us all into 4D soup.
If you want even more science fiction, this could have already happened to an alien civilisation in another galaxy. The edge of the fourth dimension could be approaching us right now, and since it's approaching at light speed, we'll never know until it gets here. :twisted:
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by Keiji » Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:41 pm
PWrong wrote:If you want even more science fiction, this could have already happened to an alien civilisation in another galaxy. The edge of the fourth dimension could be approaching us right now, and since it's approaching at light speed, we'll never know until it gets here. :twisted:
Don't give the kids nightmares, now.
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by elpenmaster » Sat Jun 19, 2004 4:52 am
yes, that is indeed a scary thought
i thgink that it would be possible to see the fourth dimension. for example, somebody who is blind from birth, they cannot imagine what things look like. however, if they are stimulated the right neurons and such, they will actually see.
there is nothing holding back us from visualizing the fourth dimension other than the fact that we dont know what it looks like. but if a computer knew which neurons to stimulate, somebody could actual;ly visualize the 4th dimension. somebody could have by random chance had these neurons stimulated, and be mentally looking at 4d right now.
:twisted:
i thgink that it would be possible to see the fourth dimension. for example, somebody who is blind from birth, they cannot imagine what things look like. however, if they are stimulated the right neurons and such, they will actually see.
there is nothing holding back us from visualizing the fourth dimension other than the fact that we dont know what it looks like. but if a computer knew which neurons to stimulate, somebody could actual;ly visualize the 4th dimension. somebody could have by random chance had these neurons stimulated, and be mentally looking at 4d right now.
:twisted:
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by Keiji » Sat Jun 19, 2004 3:39 pm
elpenmaster wrote:i think that it would be possible to see the fourth dimension. for example, somebody who is blind from birth, they cannot imagine what things look like. however, if they are stimulated the right neurons and such, they will actually see.
there is nothing holding back us from visualizing the fourth dimension other than the fact that we dont know what it looks like. but if a computer knew which neurons to stimulate, somebody could actual;ly visualize the 4th dimension.
yes, very true.
actual;ly
ono! it's perfect chaos! j/k
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by PWrong » Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:11 am
Apparently there is a small percentage of the population with mutated receptors in the eye, which allow them to see another colour. It affects about 3% of women, but never men for some reason. They can supposedly distinguish between two shades that look identical to us.
We could try stimulating neurons so that we can see all wavelengths of light as colours. Having this ability might not much good for looking around, but you might see interesting visions, and it would be a good way to test the ability to see things through a computer.
The problem with using the same idea for the fourth dimension is that you can't really move around in it. Maybe we could get the computer to read our brain signals, and use them to move our virtual 4D arms and legs.
We could try stimulating neurons so that we can see all wavelengths of light as colours. Having this ability might not much good for looking around, but you might see interesting visions, and it would be a good way to test the ability to see things through a computer.
The problem with using the same idea for the fourth dimension is that you can't really move around in it. Maybe we could get the computer to read our brain signals, and use them to move our virtual 4D arms and legs.
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by PWrong » Thu Jun 24, 2004 6:24 am
I assume neurons gradually learn to interpret whatever information reaches it. You'd have to start with a baby, maybe even an unborn baby.
4D visual information shouldn't be much different from 3D. In a computer, they can both be translated into a binary code, so the brain could probably do a similar thing.
4D visual information shouldn't be much different from 3D. In a computer, they can both be translated into a binary code, so the brain could probably do a similar thing.
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by mightymrbob » Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:49 am
So maybe if we grew a baby!?!? then we could "insert" binary code into its brain? 
:?
:?Last edited by mightymrbob on Thu Jun 24, 2004 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by jinydu » Thu Jun 24, 2004 8:00 am
The brain's storage system is much more complex than an electronic computer's. For one thing, memories are usually stored in multiple locations.
In any case, we would have a long way to go. We don't even know how to create the sensation of a virtual 3D environment just by stimulating neurons directly, let alone a virtual 4D environment.
In any case, we would have a long way to go. We don't even know how to create the sensation of a virtual 3D environment just by stimulating neurons directly, let alone a virtual 4D environment.
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by mightymrbob » Thu Jun 24, 2004 8:02 am
Well... Maybe, but 50 years ago people would have died at the mention of a 50gig hardrive!
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by mightymrbob » Thu Jun 24, 2004 5:47 pm
That's very true. Excuse me, a gigabyte? What the devil is a "Gigabyte"? 
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by mightymrbob » Fri Jun 25, 2004 7:42 am
I know, I know. I take it you were being a pedant...
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by sup2069 » Fri Jun 25, 2004 11:06 am
The only way we could actually experience living in the 4th dimension is if we could translate our consciousness into a 4D computer or something along those lines. Not very likely.
Hey I thought of that
Well in away
http://tetraspace.alkaline.org/forum/vi ... highlight=
@PWrong
Therefore any large object we put into the fourth dimension could instantly become an atom bomb. We could always harness the energy, turning the fourth dimension into a quick nuclear power plant, that can use any element for fuel.
I guess your right about it being boring. My guess is if by the time we could open up a way for us to insert stuff into the fourth dimension, we would have the power to have (possibly?) infinite cheap energy. Creating our own stars for harvesting, cold fusion?
I dont want to hijack a thread, just thought Id post tonite. Continue on!
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