"Convex" polytopes in hyperbolic space?

Higher-dimensional geometry (previously "Polyshapes").

"Convex" polytopes in hyperbolic space?

Postby quickfur » Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:10 pm

I recently started dabbling with hyperbolic geometry. Started grokking stuff like equidistant curves, horocycles, ultraparallel lines, etc..

This has made me start wondering, is it possible to define convexity in hyperbolic space in a consistent way? If so, does it increase the set of convex {regular, uniform, etc.} polytopes in n dimensions?
quickfur
Pentonian
 
Posts: 2722
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 11:20 pm
Location: The Great White North

Re: "Convex" polytopes in hyperbolic space?

Postby Plasmath » Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:44 am

The formal definition for convex is that given any two points in the shape they can connect with a line segment that does not leave the shape. Because we can define lines in hyperbolic space, we can therefore define line segments, so we can therefore we can determine convexity.
Two other related things: H3 and H2R1 spaces could have different convex polytopes,
And more importantly, every two points has multiple lines fitting through it, so there are two possible definitions that I think could work:
At least one line segment stays within the shape
All possible line segments stay within the shape
Not sure what new convex polytopes exist, however.
Plasmath
Dionian
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:57 pm

Re: "Convex" polytopes in hyperbolic space?

Postby quickfur » Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:08 am

But I thought in Hn, there's a unique shortest line segment between every pair of points? (Even if there are multiple lines that could fit through it.)
quickfur
Pentonian
 
Posts: 2722
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 11:20 pm
Location: The Great White North

Re: "Convex" polytopes in hyperbolic space?

Postby Klitzing » Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:55 am

The facets of any hyperbolic Wythoffian with integral CD link marks only will be convex.
--- rk
Klitzing
Pentonian
 
Posts: 1587
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:16 am
Location: Heidenheim, Germany

Re: "Convex" polytopes in hyperbolic space?

Postby quickfur » Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:47 pm

Plasmath wrote:[...]
And more importantly, every two points has multiple lines fitting through it
[...]

Hold on a sec, isn't that wrong? I thought only in spherical space there are multiple lines through a fixed pair of points. In hyperbolic space there should only be a single line through any pair of points?
quickfur
Pentonian
 
Posts: 2722
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 11:20 pm
Location: The Great White North

Re: "Convex" polytopes in hyperbolic space?

Postby Marek14 » Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:17 am

quickfur wrote:
Plasmath wrote:[...]
And more importantly, every two points has multiple lines fitting through it
[...]

Hold on a sec, isn't that wrong? I thought only in spherical space there are multiple lines through a fixed pair of points. In hyperbolic space there should only be a single line through any pair of points?


Yes. And even in spherical space, multiple lines exist only for antipodal points -- changing to elliptic space fixes that problem.

Multiple geodesics connecting two points is more a problem in quotient or Nil.
Marek14
Pentonian
 
Posts: 1175
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:40 pm

Re: "Convex" polytopes in hyperbolic space?

Postby quickfur » Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:48 pm

Does that mean that hyperbolic space does not introduce any "new" convex polytopes that doesn't already exist in Euclidean space?
quickfur
Pentonian
 
Posts: 2722
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 11:20 pm
Location: The Great White North

Re: "Convex" polytopes in hyperbolic space?

Postby Marek14 » Thu Jul 15, 2021 5:31 pm

quickfur wrote:Does that mean that hyperbolic space does not introduce any "new" convex polytopes that doesn't already exist in Euclidean space?

Yup, though there are some more "strictly convex". For example, a line of cubes in Euclidean space has 180-degree angles between them, but in hyperbolic space, it's less.
Marek14
Pentonian
 
Posts: 1175
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:40 pm

Re: "Convex" polytopes in hyperbolic space?

Postby quickfur » Sat Jul 17, 2021 2:47 pm

Marek14 wrote:
quickfur wrote:Does that mean that hyperbolic space does not introduce any "new" convex polytopes that doesn't already exist in Euclidean space?

Yup, though there are some more "strictly convex". For example, a line of cubes in Euclidean space has 180-degree angles between them, but in hyperbolic space, it's less.

But doesn't that mean there ought to be more convex polytopes in hyperbolic space? Because you could have a fragment of the surface consist of, say, this line of cubes, and it would be convex where in Euclidean space it would be degenerate. So there ought to be more strictly convex polytopes?
quickfur
Pentonian
 
Posts: 2722
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 11:20 pm
Location: The Great White North

Re: "Convex" polytopes in hyperbolic space?

Postby Marek14 » Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:00 pm

quickfur wrote:
Marek14 wrote:
quickfur wrote:Does that mean that hyperbolic space does not introduce any "new" convex polytopes that doesn't already exist in Euclidean space?

Yup, though there are some more "strictly convex". For example, a line of cubes in Euclidean space has 180-degree angles between them, but in hyperbolic space, it's less.

But doesn't that mean there ought to be more convex polytopes in hyperbolic space? Because you could have a fragment of the surface consist of, say, this line of cubes, and it would be convex where in Euclidean space it would be degenerate. So there ought to be more strictly convex polytopes?


Well, this all depends on how do you count polytopes. When do you consider an Euclidean and hyperbolic polytope analogical, exactly?

After all, you can put a hyperbolic polytope inside a sphere in Klein projection, and the projection will then be an Euclidean polytope.
Marek14
Pentonian
 
Posts: 1175
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:40 pm

Re: "Convex" polytopes in hyperbolic space?

Postby quickfur » Sun Jul 18, 2021 7:11 pm

I'm thinking in terms of "native" hyperbolic polytopes. I.e., polytopes that exist in hyperbolic space, using the native (i.e., hyperbolic) definition of straight lines to determine convexity.

For example, in Euclidean 2D plane, a vertex surrounded by 4 squares has zero angle defect, so it cannot be strictly convex. In hyperbolic space, however, a vertex surrounded by 4 quadrilaterals will have positive angle defect, and so can be part of a larger strictly-convex polytope.
quickfur
Pentonian
 
Posts: 2722
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 11:20 pm
Location: The Great White North

Re: "Convex" polytopes in hyperbolic space?

Postby Plasmath » Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:04 am

This may not be what you're looking for, but ideal polyhedra/polytopes should be strictly convex. Adjusting the vertices to not be ideal points should give finite strictly convex hyperbolic polytopes, but I haven't checked yet.
quickfur wrote:... does it [hyperbolic space] increase the set of convex {regular, uniform, etc.} polytopes in n dimensions?

Ideal polyhedra don't really add any new polytopes. These really just create hyperbolic versions of existing polytopes and don't create new ones.
Plasmath
Dionian
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:57 pm

Re: "Convex" polytopes in hyperbolic space?

Postby wendy » Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:30 am

No additional uniform convex polytopes exist in hyperbolic space, that isn't already in euclidean space.

On the other hand John Conway and I worked on various different and inter-related methods to describe the infinitude of those that exist as convex polytopes in H3.
The dream you dream alone is only a dream
the dream we dream together is reality.

\(\LaTeX\ \) at https://greasyfork.org/en/users/188714-wendy-krieger
User avatar
wendy
Pentonian
 
Posts: 1960
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:42 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: "Convex" polytopes in hyperbolic space?

Postby mr_e_man » Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:24 pm

quickfur wrote:I'm thinking in terms of "native" hyperbolic polytopes. I.e., polytopes that exist in hyperbolic space, using the native (i.e., hyperbolic) definition of straight lines to determine convexity.

For example, in Euclidean 2D plane, a vertex surrounded by 4 squares has zero angle defect, so it cannot be strictly convex. In hyperbolic space, however, a vertex surrounded by 4 quadrilaterals will have positive angle defect, and so can be part of a larger strictly-convex polytope.


In the Klein model (corresponding to gnomonic projection), hyperbolic straight lines are the same as Euclidean straight lines, so convexity is the same. But the angles are different. In particular, a hyperbolic convex regular polygon will generally be projected to a convex irregular polygon.
ΓΔΘΛΞΠΣΦΨΩ αβγδεζηθϑικλμνξοπρϱσςτυϕφχψωϖ °±∓½⅓⅔¼¾×÷†‡• ⁰¹²³⁴⁵⁶⁷⁸⁹⁺⁻⁼⁽⁾₀₁₂₃₄₅₆₇₈₉₊₋₌₍₎
ℕℤℚℝℂ∂¬∀∃∅∆∇∈∉∋∌∏∑ ∗∘∙√∛∜∝∞∧∨∩∪∫≅≈≟≠≡≤≥⊂⊃⊆⊇ ⊕⊖⊗⊘⊙⌈⌉⌊⌋⌜⌝⌞⌟〈〉⟨⟩
mr_e_man
Tetronian
 
Posts: 258
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:10 am


Return to Other Geometry

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron