Surface of 4D object creates an imaginary 3D infinite space.

[lordofduct]

1) I hadn't seen any discussions on this... but then I've only been here a short time so I hope it hasn't been discussed and my dumb ass looks lazy for not searching. Which I did.

2) I have drawings for this, but you all have been playing with this for awhile so you shouldn't need them. Anyways, they aren't scanned SO!

Now I will get to it.
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Say you have a 2D circle. The surface of that circle would be the 1D curve that is the edge (sort of like a number line bent around itself). On this edge could exist a 1dimensional being that exists on this 1D world that is the edge with the ability to move only clockwise or counter clockwise around the circle. To the 1D being who has no concept of up and down might consider the path as he walks around the circle an infinitely long strait path. Curves would not exist in the 1st dimension.

Now take a 3D sphere. The surface of this would be a curved 2D plane/surface (kind of like an xy plane bent around itself). If a 2D being lived on this surface (as if drawn directly on the sphere) he would be able to move longitudaly or latitudaly about this sphere (aly?). As he walked in any one direction he could continue on with out ever reaching an edge... again simulating infinite space when on a large enough scale. The comprehension of the curved surface wouldn't exist to the being as that would again require the 3rd dimension.

So of course you know what I am getting to...

Take a 4 dimensional hypersphere. The surface of this 4nth sphere would be a 3D realm (kind of like a 3dimensional graph bent through the 4th dimension onto itself where the +limit of x innevitably meets the - limit of x... and so on for the y and z). If 3D beings lived on this surface they would be able to move in the direction of any of those 3 axiis (xyz). As one walked in any direction and stayed in that direction they would never reach an edge and sooner or later return back to the point they began. When on a large enough scale this would seem like infinity.

We would not be able to see the curve that is required to allow the limit of +x meet the lim of -x because we can only perceive 3D.

So what if this was our universe? This could explain much of the big bang theory along with other ideas like black holes possibly.

As I am at work right now I will continue some other time... if you'd like. Let me know?

[Keiji]

Sounds interesting... i've always wondered about black holes and things could be disruptions on the surface of the 4d object.

[thigle]

that's like the global 4d curvature of hypersphere model of the universe. check out the link which is in some thread on these forums from past few weeks, there's a link to some paper called: "The Derivation in Topology
of Riemann's S3/V4 "Closed Cosmic Hypersphere" (s3 for flat 3-surface and v4 for curved 4-volume). by Michael Fetz.

[houserichichi]

It's a similar idea to the screen of the game Asteroids. If you fly off the screen to the right you emerge on the left. If you fly off the screen at the top you arrive at the bottom. This is exactly what would happen if spacetime in Asteroids were the shape of a donut. If one were to travel around the hole in the center of the donut they'd find themselves back where they started without ever finding an edge. That's the left-right direction on the screen. If one were to travel into the hole (but staying on the donut itself) and then back underneath, they'd find themselves, again, where they started. That's the up-down direction on the screen.

I believe there was a theory similar to yours a few years back (was it the soccer ball universe model?). Anyway, we weren't supposed to be wrapped around a sphere, but instead of four dimensional dodecahedron. Whether I'm right or wrong on the details, I am nearly certain that this model hasn't been universally accepted and, if anything, might have been refuted as we don't really hear about it very often in the media (they're usually the ones that hype all ideas strange and obscure to the masses).

[lordofduct]

OK, well I can't sleep so I will further go into my idea.

Let's first start with explaining why a chose a 4nth sphere. I guess it could be any 4 dimensional object that atleast had a limited surface area with no edges, but I chose sphere for the fact it doesn't have dramatic angular changes in it and it would more be smooth all around.

Anyways, what I wanted to get to is what I consider time to be... this may be stretching it, but I personally believe this.


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Time is not a dimension, but is the how could you say... scalar for each dimension. It is what creates the next spacial dimension for a spacial body depending on it's speed and perception of time.

Take for instance, time is relative to speed. The faster you travel the more time will pass in a relative moment. It is assumed as one approaches the speed of light (or the event horizon of a black hole) that time will of past so quickly that the universe were to stand still and you'd see the beginning and the end.

Well what if it is this that draws dimensions. A line of infinitely short distance begins at an axis and then it grows while rotating around that axis to reach a maximum and then shrink back down again to draw a circle.

Like so:


Now again do this with a small circle and that expands again and rotates around a single point.

like so (mind the pic, done in gimp and I never used gimp):


again do this as a sphere rotating from a cingular point from small to a maximum and back to small to create our 4nth sphere.


Now assume that when you are a 1D object standing on the edge of a circle as it is rotating to creat the surface of a 3D sphere you won't notice the sphere because it is being drawn at that moment... it is as if you are standing on the circle at pi/2. All you can imagine is that one long line... and possibly maybe perceive the circle... like fred and bob with their next spacial dimension.

Now as this entity moves faster and faster and approaches that speed which would cause his 1D world to seem as if it were standing still, it would see the entire surface of the sphere. It has now entered the 2D realm.

Now as the 2D object on a 3D sphere rotating on a plane. As the 2D entity approached that maximum speed it too would see every sphere combined to create a surface of a 4nth sphere. It now has broken into 3 space which lyes on the surface of a 4nth sphere.

Now here we are in our realm. We are standing on the surface of a 4nth sphere that is rotating (just like the 1D entity standing on the surface of the 2D circle that rotated). As we can not see every sphere that makes up the 4nth sphere that is rotating we now stand on the surface of it in spheres, stretched across the surface of the 4nth sphere, that grow and shrink depending at what instance of rotation the 4nth sphere is at.

Well if time is reletive to speed this could explain the big bang theory in that at the birth of the universe; matter just entered the third realm. Large explosion from a small small minute point... like a 0rad in those drawings. As the explosion propelled matter outward it gained speed and passing time so that the universe would grow... now the universe is on a larger sphere making the 4nth sphere. As we approach that speed.

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So how does this tie into black holes? Well black holes are so dense that they attract light. right? That means it has to be pulling faster then light is pushing away. If it is possible to reach the 4D realm then these objects or stars are something that accomplished this and have torn themselves off of the surface of the 4nth sphere and entered the 4D world.




God, I sound so elementary with my words.

[lordofduct]

This would also assist in proving the theory that time travel is made possible at the speed of light. Because it is said that a 4D entity can access any point in the 3D realm without having to pass through walls or anything...

including time. As there 4D realm is made possible by the entire passing of time here in the 3D realm...


though time still is reletive again... as you can slow it down, or even rotate yet once more. Like a planet turning on it's axis, it goes on forever yet still has a beginning and an end.

[thigle]

gives some sense. check out this timetome you time-freak
http://www.chronos.msu.ru/eelectropublications.html
especially saniga's papers are relevant to your thoughts.

[lordofduct]

yey...

thanks.

[PWrong]

This would also assist in proving the theory that time travel is made possible at the speed of light. Because it is said that a 4D entity can access any point in the 3D realm without having to pass through walls or anything...

I don't know who said that, but they shouldn't have. Now they'll have to prove it by accessing every point in the plane of our solar system.

including time. As there 4D realm is made possible by the entire passing of time here in the 3D realm...

No it's not. 4D space doesn't require time. :wink:.

Take for instance, time is relative to speed. The faster you travel the more time will pass in a relative moment. It is assumed as one approaches the speed of light (or the event horizon of a black hole) that time will of past so quickly that the universe were to stand still and you'd see the beginning and the end.

Actually it's sort of the other way round. If you're close to the speed of light, I'll see your clock slowing down. You won't notice anything wrong with your watch, but you'll see my watch slowing down. Of course, that's assuming you don't accelerate.

[lordofduct]

including time. As there 4D realm is made possible by the entire passing of time here in the 3D realm...

No it's not. 4D space doesn't require time. :wink:..

I hate it when people on this freaking forum assume that when I say could, they say i said would, did or require! Listen I said by following the theory I laid out that the 4D space would of been created by the passing of time here in the 3D realm. Not that it is required, but given my 'theory' that it could happen.

Anyways from the 4D realm you would be accessing 1 single 3D realm, our realm, not every 3D realm.