Light in 4D

Ideas about how a world with more than three spatial dimensions would work - what laws of physics would be needed, how things would be built, how people would do things and so on.

Light in 4D

Postby PWrong » Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:53 pm

Hi everyone, sorry I haven't been on for a while, I just finished exams a few days ago.

I think I've worked out a simple description of 4D light using Maxwells equations.
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/MaxwellEquations.html
My earlier attempt didn't work because I hadn't learnt them formally, and also because I was using them in the differential form, which uses the cross product. The integral form is a lot easier to extend to 4D, especially when you only consider light.

Basically, I've assumed that in 4D there are three kinds of electromagnetic field; electric, magnetic and "tetric", (hopefully someone can think of a better name).

It's getting late, so I'll post the details tomorrow. But my set of equations gives the speed of light as
c^3 = 1 / (mu[sub]0[/sub] * epsilon[sub]0[/sub] * tau[sub]0[/sub])

where mu[sub]0[/sub] is the permittivity of free space,
epsilon[sub]0[/sub] is the permeability of free space,
and tau[sub]0[/sub] is something similar to account for the extra field.

I'm not sure what units tau should be in yet, but it's encouraging to see a formula that's very similar to our own speed of light.

I could be wrong, of course. There are a few options for Maxwell's equations, and I just picked the ones that seemed to give nice solutions. :oops:

Incidentally, although I have no other evidence to back this up, I wonder if the c^3 above will also appear in other equations. Wouldn't it be exciting if we could prove that E= mc^3? :P
User avatar
PWrong
Pentonian
 
Posts: 1599
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:21 am
Location: Perth, Australia

Postby jinydu » Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:05 am

Well, it could be interesting to look at the properties of this "tetric" field. After all, there are some differences between electricity and magnetism.

Based on the equation:

c^3 = 1 / (mu[sub]0[/sub] * epsilon[sub]0[/sub] * tau[sub]0[/sub])

you should be able to find the units of tau; simply solve for it. After all, you know the units for all the other things in that equation.

As for your last thought, E = mc^3 can't possibly be right, since the right-hand side has units of kg*m^3*s^-3, which is not the same as joules.
jinydu
Tetronian
 
Posts: 721
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:31 am

Postby wendy » Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:18 am

Why do you assume light is electromagnetic?

Even maxwell did not state that. What he did was to show that EM waves propagate at the EM velocity constant, and that Weber-Kausch's measurement of this, at 310,700,000,000 millimetres is experimentally close to a french measurement of the speed of light, when it is put through a series of dodgy conversion factors, and misplaced names. (eg a mile of 6080 feet is taken to be 6000 feet).

It was Heinrich Hertz who generated undeniable EM waves (ie a rotating magnet), and showed that they had the propertities of light.

W
The dream you dream alone is only a dream
the dream we dream together is reality.

\ ( \(\LaTeX\ \) \ ) [no spaces] at https://greasyfork.org/en/users/188714-wendy-krieger
User avatar
wendy
Pentonian
 
Posts: 2014
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:42 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Postby PWrong » Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:13 pm

Why do you assume light is electromagnetic?

Why not? Unfortunately, we can't measure the speed of 4D light, but if we find a contradiction in the equations somewhere down the track, then we'll know that light isn't electromagnetic. Anyway, lets define 4D light as a 4D electromagnetic wave, if only because it's a shorter word.

I'm still trying to find a website that explains electromagnetic waves in 3D. There's a perfect explanation on my uni's website, but it requires a password, so for now I'll try to explain it myself.

I'll start with Gauss's laws, because it's easiest. Gauss's law for any field says that the flux through a closed surface is equal to the charge enclosed. There's no such thing as a magnetic charge, so this means the magnetic flux is 0.
In 4D, the only difference is that the "surface" is actually a 3D surcell. So we integrate over a volume, not an area.

We don't yet know whether tetric monopoles exist, but that doesn't matter, because we're looking at an electromagnetic wave on it's own, far away from any electric or tetric charges. So for any gaussian surface we pick, there are no charges of any kind enclosed, and Gauss's law simply becomes:

Int E.dV = 0
Int B.dV = 0
Int T.dV = 0
(E,B,T and V are vectors)

Faraday and Ampere's law are more complicated. With no current enclosed, they are:

Int E.dl = - d(flux B) / dt
Int B.dl = mu*eps d(flux E) / dt

This is how my textbook (Young and Freedman 11th ed.) shows that electromagnetic waves can exist (in 3D).

Draw a 3D graph, with an E pointing in the y direction and B pointing in the z direction, and the wave propagating in the x direction. We assume the wave is travelling at a constant speed c, without saying what value c might be. During a time dt, the wave front moves ahead c.dt

Then you draw a box in the xy plane, that extends behind and in front of the wave, and integrate the electric field anticlockwise around the box,

Here's an example. The first vertical line is the y axis, the second is a wave front, and the third is the same wave front after a time t. The dots represent the B field coming out of the page, behind the wave front. There is also an electric field pointing up, also behind the wave front.

Code: Select all
y----->cdt<----
|........|...|
|...g------------f   ^
|...|....|...|      |   |
|...|....|...|      |   a
|...|....|...|      |   |
|...h------------e  v
|........|...|
O______________x


fg and he are perpendicular to the field, ef is outside the field, so the integral is simply
Int E.dl = | E.gh | = - |E|*a

Now by Faraday's law, this means -Ea = - d (flux B)/dt
the change in magnetic flux through the rectangle, during the time dt. This is the area that the wave front sweeps out, a*c dt.

So we get -Ea = -Bac, or E=Bc

Now we do something similar on the xz plane, and from Ampere's law we get B= mu*eps*cE.
Together, these give B = mu * eps *c *Bc
or c^2 = 1/(mu * eps)

Now, there are many possibilities for a 4D analogue of Maxwells equations, and I've only tried a few of them. But, using the same reasoning as above, I've found values for all the important integrals etc.

I assumed that the three fields are all perpendicular, looked at the planes xy,xz and xw each in turn, and drew a box.

for the xy plane,
Int E dl = -Ea,
d (flux B) / dt = Bac
d (flux T) / dt = Tac

for xz,
Int B dl = Ba,
d (flux E) / dt = Eac
d (flux T) / dt = Tac

and xw,
Int T dl = -Ea,
d (flux E) / dt = Eac
d (flux B) / dt = Bac

The set of equations I decided on was this. Note that a changing E field generates a B field, a changing B field generates a T field, and a changing T field generates an E field.

Int E.dl = - d(flux B) / dt
Int B.dl = d(flux T) / dt
Int T.dl = mu*eps*tau * d(flux E) / dt

This results in
Ea = Bac
Ba = Tac
Ta = mu*eps*tau * Eac

The first two give E = Tc^2
And the third gives
T = mu*eps*tau * Tc^3
so c^3 = 1/(mu*eps*tau)

mu is in Webers per Amp meter, and epsilon is in
C^2/Nm^2. If we don't change these, then tau should be simply m/s, but I don't think that's right. For instance, Wb is the unit of flux, but flux is now an integral over volume, not area.
User avatar
PWrong
Pentonian
 
Posts: 1599
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:21 am
Location: Perth, Australia

Postby PWrong » Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:57 pm

Sorry, I stuffed up the drawing, this one should be right.

Code: Select all
y----->cdt<----
|........|...|
|...g------------f  ^
|...|....|...|   |  |
|...|....|...|   |  a
|...|....|...|   |  |
|...h------------e  v
|........|...|
O______________x


By the way, when I said,
The first vertical line is the y axis, the second is a wave front, and the third is the same wave front after a time t
I only meant the tall lines, not the small lines around the box. Also, the dots represent the magnetic field coming out of the page.

I hope all of that last post made sense. I know it was a bit too long, and I can't explain it as well as a textbook. But I think if you understand the 3D case, the 4D case doesn't require anything new.

I'm not sure how 4D EMT waves would be produced.
In 3D it happens like this: a charge produces an electric field, a moving charge produces a magnetic field, and an accelerating charge produces an EM wave.

This isn't the kind of analogy I'd like to extend, because we'd end up with third derivatives everywhere.

The other thing that's worrying me is the general formula for the force on a particle. F = q(E + v.B)

If we continue this by adding a.T it might imply that the number of derivatives is somehow related to the dimension. So maybe it would be better to add v<sup>2</sup>.T. What do you think?
User avatar
PWrong
Pentonian
 
Posts: 1599
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:21 am
Location: Perth, Australia

Postby jinydu » Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:03 am

Adding an a.T could be problematic. Remember that there is a critical, and nontrivial difference between velocity and acceleration. An observer moving at constant velocity with respect to an inertial frame of reference will also be in an inertial frame of reference; but the same is not true, in general, if we change the word velocity to acceleration. Recall that an accelerating charge emits electromagnetic waves, but a charge moving at constant velocity doesn't. In some sense then, nature "doesn't know" the difference between constant velocity and rest, but "does know" the difference between acceleration and non-acceleration.

Thus, all inertial observers agree on the value of a, whereas they disagree on the values of E, v and B. We expect that all inertial observers should agree on the value of F, since, to quote my professor "If I smack someone on the side of the head, it should hurt equally in all frames of reference." What do all these considerations say about T?
jinydu
Tetronian
 
Posts: 721
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:31 am

Postby PWrong » Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:46 pm

Now that you mention relativity, I remember reading that a magnetic field is a "relativistic manifestation" of an electric field. Apparently what looks like a magnetic field in one frame of reference can be an electric field in another.

Also, Maxwells equations are supposedly much simpler when written in tensor notation. Unfortunately, all I know about tensors is that they're some kind of generalisation of matrices, but according to mathworld,
the dimension of the space is largely irrelevant in most tensor equations

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Tensor.html
So they would be probably be very useful for this.

Anyway, I just tried a different set of equations, where the tetric field and magnetic field are essentially the same.

Int E.dl = d(flux T) / dt - d(flux B) / dt
Int B.dl = mu*eps*tau * d(flux E) / dt
Int T.dl = -mu*eps*tau * d(flux E) / dt

this gives
-E = Tc - Bc
B = mu*eps*tau * Ec
T = -mu*eps*tau * Ec

which results in c^2 = 2*mu*eps*tau

By assuming the B and T fields are identical, we know that there are no tetric monopoles. The force equation would be something like
F = q(E + vB + v.T
This might be easier than the other formula.
User avatar
PWrong
Pentonian
 
Posts: 1599
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:21 am
Location: Perth, Australia


Return to Higher Spatial Dimensions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 48 guests

cron