4D visualization document updated

Ideas about how a world with more than three spatial dimensions would work - what laws of physics would be needed, how things would be built, how people would do things and so on.

4D visualization document updated

Postby quickfur » Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:14 pm

I've been doing a major rewrite of the 4D visualization document, and finally published the latest version:

http://eusebeia.dyndns.org/~hsteoh/4d/vis/vis.html

I haven't gotten as far as I did in the old document, but this time I've put in lots and lots of diagrams, plus some cool animations too! Many of these diagrams are produced by GEO, my scriptable geometric calculator program.

Also, I've updated the geometric objects pages as well. Notable new additions are the new diagrams of the tetracube, including a really cool animation of the tetracube rotating in the XW plane:

Image

I know, I know, not as cool as the prospective animation of the duocylinder I promised to make, or the 24-cell animation I'm hoping to make. I'm working on it. ;-)

Anyway, comments on the new 4D visualization document are welcome. I think you guys will like it much better now that there are nice diagrams throughout. :-)
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Postby wolfman » Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:57 am

In your post you say the tetracube is rotating IN the XW plane, but in your document you say it is rotating AROUND the XW plane. It appears to me the former is correct, i.e. it is rotating IN the XW plane and AROUND the YZ plane (since the y and z coordinates are unchanging). :D
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Postby quickfur » Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:00 am

wolfman wrote:In your post you say the tetracube is rotating IN the XW plane, but in your document you say it is rotating AROUND the XW plane. It appears to me the former is correct, i.e. it is rotating IN the XW plane and AROUND the YZ plane (since the y and z coordinates are unchanging). :D

Good point!! I must go through the text and correct other such errors... thanks for pointing it out :-)
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Postby wendy » Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:16 pm

I had a peek at quikfur's page on visualisations. I am very impressed.

At the moment, i am currently working on the wheel and its transformation into a rotationg earth. My visualisation pages are in the polygloss at my page.

polygloss: http://www.geocities.com/os2fan2/gloss/index.html
quickfur: http://eusebeia.dyndns.org/~hsteoh/4d/vis/vis.html

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Postby pat » Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:15 pm

I like your document alot. I don't think I ever saw the original.

In the part about dimension analogy as it applies to retinas, you mention that only the front set of cells would get light. This is true. But, equally important, I think, is that a 2-D array is enough to get all of the light coming toward you. You are mentioning that your cells would block incoming light from reaching the other cells. But, even if the cells were semi-transparent, you'd gain no new information. The scene is only sending you enough light to make a 2-D picture.

One dimension is "spent" getting the light from the object to you. I think I would say something like "consider the line from your eye to a point that is reflecting light. If there is another point along this line that is also reflecting light, then either it blocks the light from the other, the other blocks the light from it, or (if the nearer is somewhat transparent) you see a combination of the colors still in that one point.
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Postby quickfur » Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:53 pm

pat wrote:I like your document alot.

Thanks :-)

I don't think I ever saw the original.

Oh? I was pretty sure you did... it was the one that talked about Tetra the 4D lady. It was a nice approach for describing 4D, but after a while it just gets really difficult to proceed without adequately covering the basics, so I rewrote the thing from scratch. I'm not sure whether or not Tetra will make it back in the story yet. :-)

In the part about dimension analogy as it applies to retinas, you mention that only the front set of cells would get light. This is true. But, equally important, I think, is that a 2-D array is enough to get all of the light coming toward you. You are mentioning that your cells would block incoming light from reaching the other cells. But, even if the cells were semi-transparent, you'd gain no new information. The scene is only sending you enough light to make a 2-D picture.

That is true. I'll have to rephrase that part.

One dimension is "spent" getting the light from the object to you. I think I would say something like "consider the line from your eye to a point that is reflecting light. If there is another point along this line that is also reflecting light, then either it blocks the light from the other, the other blocks the light from it, or (if the nearer is somewhat transparent) you see a combination of the colors still in that one point.

Yeah, I think the crux of the argument is that to transmit n-dimensional visual information, the light must have n+1 dimensions to travel in, otherwise the information will overlap in a way that cannot be decomposed back to the original. I still have to try to work out alternative wordings to see which one is better.

Did you get to the cross-sections chapter yet? I'm particularly proud of the diagram with a sequence of 3D intersections of a 4D object. (It's a tetracube, btw; I purposely didn't mention this in the text.) I didn't want to bother writing a real polytope intersection routine, so instead I printed out 9 copies of the rhombic dodecahedral projection of the tetracube, and manually traced out the different intersections on paper, deriving parametrized equations for them in the process. The diagram you see is the rendering of these parametrized equations by my geometric calculator program. It was really tedious, and probably rather silly in retrospect, but in the process I acquired my first experience of computing hyperplane intersections using diagrams on paper. :-)

One of these days, I should work out a general scheme for how to draw diagrams of intersecting 3-hyperplanes and visually deducing their intersections. At first I could not imagine how anyone could do this visually, but recently I had an inspiration: when we draw diagrams of intersecting planes in 3D, what we're really drawing aren't planes at all, but square sections of these planes. What we learned to visually deduce really isn't the intersection of the planes themselves, but the intersection of the squares, which we then extrapolate to cover the planes. I am confident that it must be possible to generalize this to 4D as well: it's just a matter of taking the right cubical sections of 3-hyperplanes and drawing them in 3D; then it should be relatively easy to visually pick out their intersection. We just have to learn the various orientations of cubes in 4-space, and the kind of intersections they make with each other.

A corollary of this is that hyperplanes aren't that hard to visualize: we just imagine a cubical section of it, the foreshortenings and angles of which would give us an idea of the orientation of the hyperplane, and then just extrapolate that to cover a 3-dimensional region.
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Postby quickfur » Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:57 pm

wendy wrote:I had a peek at quikfur's page on visualisations. I am very impressed.

Thanks. :-)

At the moment, i am currently working on the wheel and its transformation into a rotationg earth. My visualisation pages are in the polygloss at my page.

polygloss: http://www.geocities.com/os2fan2/gloss/index.html
quickfur: http://eusebeia.dyndns.org/~hsteoh/4d/vis/vis.html

Just out of curiosity, do you have a version of the polygloss that uses the th digraph for thorn? :-) Much as I respect your use of the thorn, I just can't my eyes used to reading it as 'th', and it just makes the polygloss less accessible, IMHO.
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Postby pat » Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:51 pm

WRT to the visualization of intersection of planes...

If you consider one facet of a hypercube as it intersects with our 3-space, then you've got (a portion of) the intersection of two hyperplanes: the hyperplane containing the facet and the hyperplane containing our 3-space.
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Postby wendy » Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:10 pm

Hi quickfur

Just out of curiosity, do you have a version of the polygloss that uses the th digraph for thorn?


I've been thinking of compiling a th-version, raþer than the thorn version. I use thorns and long-s in my normal hand writing...

The change already exists, just requires two lines of code to be added.
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Postby quickfur » Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:23 am

wendy wrote:Hi quickfur

Just out of curiosity, do you have a version of the polygloss that uses the th digraph for thorn?


I've been thinking of compiling a th-version, raþer than the thorn version. I use thorns and long-s in my normal hand writing...

Cool. I usually write in a shorthand that looks like it has funny accents on all the wrong letters. I developed this from extensive note-taking. (Un)fortunately, the computer doesn't (yet?) have an adequately expressive font system to support all the diacritics I need, so I still type "normally".

Do you happen to have a hobby in creating writing systems? I know a few people who do, who also like writing with thorn and edhs, or in all lowercase, etc..

The change already exists, just requires two lines of code to be added.

Ah, I see.
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Postby quickfur » Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:29 am

pat wrote:WRT to the visualization of intersection of planes...

If you consider one facet of a hypercube as it intersects with our 3-space, then you've got (a portion of) the intersection of two hyperplanes: the hyperplane containing the facet and the hyperplane containing our 3-space.

Yep, yep. That's exactly the kind of thing I'm thinking about. Basically, once you get used to doing intersections using cubes or hypercubes, then visualizing the intersection of the entire hyperplane is a trivial extrapolation.

I hope to be able to get to the point where I can sketch two arbitrary hyperplanes at any angle in 4D, and visually intuit their intersection. (That is to say, sketch the cubic subset of each hyperplane with the proper perspective so that deriving their intersection visually would be easy.)
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Postby wendy » Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:33 am

i normally use just the 27-letters and 12 numerals, although i have digits as far as 18 and down to -1. The Polygloss contains the 27-letter and twelve digits.

There are a few revived words in my vocab, along with some from german, such as "hight" = G heiße. rath is fast (in the sense of great speed), since words like fast, quick have other meanings.

rath = fast (of speed) rather means "faster, sooner", I would rather do this, means i would sooner or more quickly adopt this.
quick = alive (ie quick + dead = living + dead) quicksilver = living (ie liquid, silver [metal], = mercury.
fast means "stuck". One is stuck fast, or fast on some trail or track, means one is stuck on some track.
speed has some alternate meaning too.
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Postby quickfur » Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:43 am

wendy wrote:i normally use just the 27-letters and 12 numerals, although i have digits as far as 18 and down to -1. The Polygloss contains the 27-letter and twelve digits.

Interesting. I don't really have any special letters, although for my shorthand I do use quite a number of made up symbols for the really common words, mainly prepositions. As for digits, being a computer person I do deal with hexadecimal from time to time, although not often enough to use it as my normal base. Sometimes I do binary as well, although octal less often.

There are a few revived words in my vocab, along with some from german, such as "hight" = G heiße. rath is fast (in the sense of great speed), since words like fast, quick have other meanings.

rath = fast (of speed) rather means "faster, sooner", I would rather do this, means i would sooner or more quickly adopt this.
quick = alive (ie quick + dead = living + dead) quicksilver = living (ie liquid, silver [metal], = mercury.
fast means "stuck". One is stuck fast, or fast on some trail or track, means one is stuck on some track.
speed has some alternate meaning too.

Interesting. I never realized "rather" was derived from "soon". :-)
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Postby wendy » Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:57 pm

Rath is not in the sense of "soon" but "fast". You could easily replace "rather" with "faster" to get the idea here.

English has dropped a number of letters. þ and ð appear in the icelandic alphabet still, so they are available to computers now.

An other (an other means "a second") letter dropped is "yoch", this is a kind of y sound that the original english g became. Most of the modern g comes from norse.

We see Menzies <- Men3ies = Mengies. The thing looked similar to a lower-case script z (with tail).

Yoch is a g that became y, ie twenti3, e3e (eye), -li3 (-ly cf G -lich), ice-3ickl (icicle).

For numbers, i adopted base 120 to assist in the calculations in higher dimensions. From what i can gather, it appears to be a bugger of a base in four dimensions (because it falls in the second zipf-hole of four dimensions).
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Postby quickfur » Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:51 am

wendy wrote:Rath is not in the sense of "soon" but "fast". You could easily replace "rather" with "faster" to get the idea here.

Ah, right.

English has dropped a number of letters. þ and ð appear in the icelandic alphabet still, so they are available to computers now.

Were thorn and edh actually used for writing English? IIRC, they were runic letters taken from the Celtic languages.

An other (an other means "a second") letter dropped is "yoch", this is a kind of y sound that the original english g became. Most of the modern g comes from norse.

Ah yes, yogh. I believe it's the voiced velar fricative.

We see Menzies <- Men3ies = Mengies. The thing looked similar to a lower-case script z (with tail).

Yoch is a g that became y, ie twenti3, e3e (eye), -li3 (-ly cf G -lich), ice-3ickl (icicle).

Yeah I've seen yogh, edh, and thorn before. I've dabbled some in languages, learned parts of the IPA, etc..

For numbers, i adopted base 120 to assist in the calculations in higher dimensions. From what i can gather, it appears to be a bugger of a base in four dimensions (because it falls in the second zipf-hole of four dimensions).

Interesting. How about other dimensions?

I was reading up a bit on the 120-cell today, and saw a glimpse of the incredible amount of symmetry built into it. I think my next project would be to come up with a way of cleanly representing the 120-cell on my 4D pages. I'm currently at the 24-cell, which is relatively simple, but already running into problems with using lines to represent 3D projections of 4D polytopes: there are too many edges, and I'm running out of ways of marking them differently so that the viewer can see what they're supposed to represent. I may have to resort to full polygon-based diagrams rather than lines. But that means a lot more effort in my geometric calculator program before it can render these things.

Speaking of which, are there any non-regular analogs of the 120-cell and 600-cell in dimensions beyond 4? It seems kinda abrupt that dodecahedral/icosahedral symmetry groups would appear in 3 and 4 dimensions and then vanish into thin air beyond that. I'm thinking along the lines of how the double-cube happens to be regular in 4D (24-cell), but still forms an interesting family of symmetry groups in the other dimensions even though it ceases to be a regular polytope.
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Postby wendy » Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:33 am

They were used in writing as far as OE and intermittently thereafter. The runes ( f u þ a r c g w h n i y j p q z s t b e m l x d o) were a germanic alphabet, not a celtic one.

The zipf holes are bases that are incredibly difficult to use, because they are too big for one technique and too small for the next. They roughly correspond to powers of 6, ie 6, 36, 216. In four dimensions, you would expect around powers of 12.

In four dimensions, there is a relatively interesting thing. The space of great arrows. A great arrow is a great circle + direction. In three dimensions, we can map the great arrows by the derived north-pole, so we get a hedrix (2-space) in 3d. [ie any point is a north-pole for a great-arrow].

In four dimensions, the space of great arrows is a terix (4d space) in 6 dimensions. It is the biglomohedric prism, or the cartesian product of two sphere-surfaces. Every great arrow appears as a point, and two clifford-parallels appear on the same "row" or "column". That is, they project onto the same point on one sphere or the other.

Since we have every point in 3-space corresponding to a great circle with direction in 4d, you can map 3d points to 4d circles around a point. This gives a swirling effect, like Jonathan Bower's swirl-prisms.

The twelftychoron has some great-arrow symmetries (points where you can rotate by 1/2, 1/3 or 1/5 around a plane. These come in number to 900, 400 and 144 (sum 1444 = 38*38 ). These points correspond to the vertices of 6d polytopes, bi-icosadodecahedral, bi-dodecahedral and bi-icosahedral prisms.

This is nothing strange in 4D, since there are other figures (like 3,4,3) with this sort of magick.

You ask if there are interesting non-regular figures. In six to eight dimensions, the gosset-branch appears separately, the intreging 6d figure 2_21 has 27 vertices, and 99 faces. It also tiles space too. Of course, there are other 27-vertex-figures that tile space.

Apart from gosset's facinating 4_21, with 240 vertices, there is the tetrahexagonal mod-prism. This has 216 vertices. It has also some other roles too.
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Postby jinydu » Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:21 pm

wendy wrote:The twelftychoron has some great-arrow symmetries (points where you can rotate by 1/2, 1/3 or 1/5 around a plane. These come in number to 900, 400 and 144 (sum 1444 = 38*38). These points correspond to the vertices of 6d polytopes, bi-icosadodecahedral, bi-dodecahedral and bi-icosahedral prisms.


Sorry to be a bother, but that annoying 8-smilie has struck again!
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4D pages updated (again)

Postby quickfur » Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:20 pm

I've done some editorial fixes to the 4D pages, including pat's suggestion of rephrasing the part about why retinas have 1 less dimension than the space they are meant to see. I think I finally found a good way to explain it: if you were in 3D and had a 3D retina, the only way light could reach the inner cells is to pass through the outer cells. But if that is so, what the inner cells see has already been seen by the outer cells, so the additional cells add no further information.

Also, I've updated the 4D geometric object pages. There is now a brand-new section about what I call the duo-cycles, which includes the duoprisms, the prismic cylinders (circle + polygon products), and the duocylinder. I've made quite a number of diagrams for these cool objects as well. Enjoy! :-)
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Re: 4D pages updated (again)

Postby pat » Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:08 pm

quickfur wrote:if you were in 3D and had a 3D retina, the only way light could reach the inner cells is to pass through the outer cells. But if that is so, what the inner cells see has already been seen by the outer cells, so the additional cells add no further information.


Yep... that's excellent... 'cept that I'm assuming you mean "if you were in 4D".
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Postby PWrong » Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:52 pm

I love the duocylinder animation. I'd never quite got the hang of the duocylinder until now.

What happens if a duocylinder is rolling on a flat realm, then you push it over? I know it changes direction, but does it keep moving at the same speed?
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Re: 4D pages updated (again)

Postby quickfur » Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:11 am

pat wrote:
quickfur wrote:if you were in 3D and had a 3D retina, the only way light could reach the inner cells is to pass through the outer cells. But if that is so, what the inner cells see has already been seen by the outer cells, so the additional cells add no further information.


Yep... that's excellent... 'cept that I'm assuming you mean "if you were in 4D".

No, the point was that having a 3D retina in a 3D being doesn't add additional information. In 4D, a 3D retina would be quite useful.
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Postby quickfur » Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:20 am

PWrong wrote:I love the duocylinder animation. I'd never quite got the hang of the duocylinder until now.

Heh, I never knew what the duocylinder looked like until I "discovered" that it was the limiting case of the duoprisms. :-)

What happens if a duocylinder is rolling on a flat realm, then you push it over? I know it changes direction, but does it keep moving at the same speed?

Hmm. I don't know, but that would depend on what kind of 4D physics you're assuming. Has anybody worked out plausible 4D mechanics yet?

Also, the duocylinder animation shows it in a "tumbling" rotation rather than the rolling rotation. The rolling rotation will look either like a ZW turning-inside-out rotation, or a rotation in the XY plane. In either case, the envelope of the duocylinder won't change as it does when you're tumbling it.
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Postby jinydu » Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:32 pm

quickfur wrote:Has anybody worked out plausible 4D mechanics yet?


As far as I know, Newton's 3 Laws should work just fine in any number of dimensions. In fact, this should be true for all the rules in classical mechanics, except of course the Law of Gravitation, which was already discussed in the "orbits thread".
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Postby quickfur » Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:37 am

jinydu wrote:
quickfur wrote:Has anybody worked out plausible 4D mechanics yet?


As far as I know, Newton's 3 Laws should work just fine in any number of dimensions. In fact, this should be true for all the rules in classical mechanics, except of course the Law of Gravitation, which was already discussed in the "orbits thread".

True. I'm curious about rotational dynamics though. How would you formulate 4D dynamics when you can't have a cross product with only 2 vectors? This is sure to have consequences on how things behave when torque is applied to them.

Anyway, assuming Newtonian-like physics in 4D, I'd think the duocylinder won't preserve forward momentum if you flip it on its side, since its two surfaces are mutually orthogonal.
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Postby jinydu » Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:37 am

I agree that rotational dynamics could be more difficult to generalize. In three dimensions, objects rotate about lines, which of course can be associated with a particular vector (up to a constant multiple, of course). But in four dimensions, objects can rotate about a plane, which of course cannot be associated with a particular vector (you need two vectors).

But asfor generalizing the cross product, the simplest way is to simply enlarge the traditional determinant:

| _i _j _k_ |
| x1 y1 z1 |
| x2 y2 z2 |

to become

| _ i _j _k _m |
| x1 y1 z1 w1|
| x2 y2 z2 w2|

(please ignore the _'s. The textbox formatting system is just being uncooperative).

where m is the unit vector in the fourth direction. Of course, it no longer makes sense to take the cross product of two vectors, you need 3.

In any case, serious work has already been done on generalizing the cross product to different dimensions:

http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Outer_product

(admittedly, I don't really understand anything on that page)

A more readable page is:

http://www.cps.brockport.edu/~little/matlin/node10.html
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Postby quickfur » Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:52 am

jinydu wrote:I agree that rotational dynamics could be more difficult to generalize. In three dimensions, objects rotate about lines, which of course can be associated with a particular vector (up to a constant multiple, of course). But in four dimensions, objects can rotate about a plane, which of course cannot be associated with a particular vector (you need two vectors).

Yeah, it'll need to be some sort of matrix, I think, 'cos if you get clifford rotations going, it may not merely be a simple matter of a single torque being applied to the object.

But asfor generalizing the cross product, the simplest way is to simply enlarge the traditional determinant:

| _i _j _k_ |
| x1 y1 z1 |
| x2 y2 z2 |

to become

| _ i _j _k _m |
| x1 y1 z1 w1|
| x2 y2 z2 w2|[...]

Actually, this paper by Prof. Andrew Hanson describes a more consistent way of extending the cross product to n dimensions. The thing to note here is that the R<sup>n</sup> basis vectors should be on the right column of the determinant rather than the top row. This makes no difference in 3D, but it will cause sign flips in all even dimensions.
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Postby jinydu » Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:53 pm

Thanks for the link. If I understood correctly, the generalized cross product in n dimensions involves (n - 1) vectors and is perpendicular to them all.

But I wonder if there is some analogy to the three dimensional formula:

|a x b| = |a| |b| sin (theta)
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Postby quickfur » Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:33 am

jinydu wrote:Thanks for the link. If I understood correctly, the generalized cross product in n dimensions involves (n - 1) vectors and is perpendicular to them all.

Correct.

But I wonder if there is some analogy to the three dimensional formula:

|a x b| = |a| |b| sin (theta)

Interesting question. I was going to surmise that the determinant gives you the sine of the operand vectors, but then I realized that there wouldn't be a single angle separating the vectors, so it would be kinda hard to know what the sine value meant. :-)

In any case, if there is an operation that gives you the sine value, I doubt that the resulting vector would have an easy geometric interpretation. One of these days I should sit down and derive the formula for such a thing...
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Postby PWrong » Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:03 pm

Interesting question. I was going to surmise that the determinant gives you the sine of the operand vectors, but then I realized that there wouldn't be a single angle separating the vectors, so it would be kinda hard to know what the sine value meant.


Well, you could probably do something with the two angles.
|a||b||c| sin (phi) sin (theta) should do the trick.
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Postby pat » Sun Jul 10, 2005 10:18 pm

Indeed, that would do the trick.

The magnitude of the analogue to the cross product with (n-1) vectors in n-dimensional space is the volume of the parallelpiped formed by the vectors.
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