Music In The Dimensions

[RQ]

If nobody can observe, or no interaction can be made be made between the 2nd dimension and the other dimensions, or the 2D people cannot see that their dimension is bent in a curve, then you have to redefine what you mean by curve, because it would be unobservable.

[RQ]

No wait, actually, if indeed the 2D universe was bent, then it would be something like our gravity bending space, since that would make the sum of the interior angles of a triangle add up to more or less than 180. This would surely make a difference to the 2D people. The notion that it is still 2D area is slighty altered, although not changed. It might make a Renneaux traingle, or actually just make a triangle that is curved. Problems might however arise from this. Since the 2D world can be observed from either side, the triangle with respect to the 2D people would be both a triangle on a saddle with a sum of less than 180 degree interior angles, and a sphere where it would be more than 180 degrees. This would make two different values equaling. Since in 3D a triangle would have only one face, in 2D it would have two, so it might make a few paradoxes.

[alkaline]

no, a 3d triangle would have two faces also. There are two sides to every dimension.

[RQ]

Well, I mean geometrically it would only have on face as a 2D shape, and true in 3D it would have two, but both faces have the same sum of interior angles, while a bent one wouldn't, and since it would be in 2D it would make problems, such as having the two sums of less than and greater than 180 degrees equal to each other, otherwise the 2D people would be living in an alternate reality.

[BClaw]

i see - tetronians would be able to "pluck" planar "strings". wow, they could have a guitar made simply out of a plane!

I just had a thought. i don't have the math to back up my idea, but it is simply this: A normal string varies in pitch depending on the length of it, you put your finger on a guitar string to change the length and therefor the pitch when it is strummed. If the strings were planes in the 4th dimension, would you get *two* tones whin Emily strums her guitar? Two different pitches that were relative to the length in one direction and the width in another?

[Geosphere]

You actually get way more than two tones plucking a guitar now. Overtones and resonances create layers of tone which drastically alter the effect of the sound.

[BClaw]

You actually get way more than two tones plucking a guitar now. Overtones and resonances create layers of tone which drastically alter the effect of the sound.

Sure, I understand that, but would you get two distinct primary tones, or just a shift in the strengths of the different overtones?

[Geosphere]

Define primary tone. Sinewave at 440 in perfect undisturbed atmosphere? No such thing even in our dimension. All sounds that reach your ear are myriad clusters of information.

[BClaw]

Define primary tone. Sinewave at 440 in perfect undisturbed atmosphere? No such thing even in our dimension. All sounds that reach your ear are myriad clusters of information.

I perhaps lack the proper terminology, but I think you know what I'm asking. Most people don't conciously perceive distinct overtones when they hear a note sounded. Harmony is based on the interaction of the overtones when two notes are sounded together. If I play a C' and a G'' at the same time, I perceive two distinct notes, even though you could argue that the high G is merely stengthening certain overtones from the middle C. What I am asking is this: If I put my 4-finger on the 4-violin C' plane in such a way as it 1/2 down in one direction (y?) and 2/3 over in the other direction (x?) Would I hear C'' and G'' or would it be something else, perhaps C'' with a modified overtone series. I know enough about music that the unique timbre of different instruments is caused by the relative strengths of the overtone series. String and vocals have a lot of harmonic overtones, and (I think) flutes (for example) have fewer. Some instruments have strong odd-numbers harmonics and so on. Would I percieve two distinct pitches or the same pitch with a different timbre?

[Jay]

I understand what you're trying to say, and I think the answer is no. Object can only vibrate one way at a time, no matter what the dimension.

Take a string (1d) and you can wiggle it, so that it makes a snake like motion. Now take a bed sheet (2d) and send a ripple down. It's different from the ripple on the string, but it's still just 1 ripple.

[Geosphere]

Would I percieve two distinct pitches or the same pitch with a different timbre?

At that point it simply depends how good your ear is. There are musicians who can tell you a piano key is out of tune NEXT to the one being played. They heard two distinct pitches, while casual listeners heard timbre.

[Geosphere]

Object can only vibrate one way at a time, no matter what the dimension.

How to vibrate multiple directions in Realmspace:

Lets slow down time to one hour=1 second. Wave your hand left and right 2 feet at 1 motion per second. I will grab you by the waist and lift you one foot once every 3 seconds and hold you there for 3 seconds before releasing you.

Now, speed it up to real time. Your hand vibrates at 2 distinct frequencies in 2 distinct vectors, resulting in a somewhat nifty circular dance motion.

Any guitar player can tell you that if you look at a struck string, it appears to grow thicker in diameter and pulse. This is when the multi directional waves form a standing pattern and every x seconds, multiple waves are at apex.

[Apeironian]

In 1d I think the only possible instrument would be some sort of drum, which the musician would just bang itself into to produce sound.

In 2d, percussion would be available. But in addition I think they would be able to play intruments that required blowing.

In 3d, we have both these type of instruments. But in addition, we also have the ability to create and play stringed intruments. I think these can be created in 2d, although the bionian wouldn't be able to play it b/c he wouldn't be able to pluck it.

I wonder type of instrument would require 4 spatial dimensions. I bet a 4 dimensional band would sound awesome with this addition.

A 2-d wind instrument would fall apart. Anything connecting the 2 halves would block airflow.

[Keiji]

They could be held together via magnetism.

[pat]

A 2-d wind instrument would fall apart. Anything connecting the 2 halves would block airflow.

You don't need airflow through an object. You could easily construct a bottle-band with connected 2-D shapes. And, in fact, you could make a trombone analog given a flexible string, an elastic band, and a bottle.

[cory_cpd]

No wait, actually, if indeed the 2D universe was bent, then it would be something like our gravity bending space, since that would make the sum of the interior angles of a triangle add up to more or less than 180. This would surely make a difference to the 2D people. The notion that it is still 2D area is slighty altered, although not changed. It might make a Renneaux traingle, or actually just make a triangle that is curved. Problems might however arise from this. Since the 2D world can be observed from either side, the triangle with respect to the 2D people would be both a triangle on a saddle with a sum of less than 180 degree interior angles, and a sphere where it would be more than 180 degrees. This would make two different values equaling. Since in 3D a triangle would have only one face, in 2D it would have two, so it might make a few paradoxes.

the way i see it is if the 2d world was acctually bent its being bent on one of its dimentions be it heith or width. if one of a 3d dimentions it'd be what i'd perceive as a black hole. cause at that point no one knows how deep a black whole is so wouldnt that mean thats the dimention its bending? And thats where the theory of massive space travel comes from. one of our dimentions being bent.

[papernuke]

In 1d I think the only possible instrument would be some sort of drum, which the musician would just bang itself into to produce sound.

music in the first dimension would not work becuase the 1D being would need space to "bang" himself.
also, even after he "banged" himself, the only thing that would vibrate is himself. so that doesn't really make sense.
i also think that a 1D being cannot talk, as they do in Flatland(a romance of many dimensions). that is because they would simply have no room to operate their mouth. also, even if it could produce a sound (the being), then it would only vibrate on a 1D axis, which is simply a point, so i don't understand how higher dimenisonal beings would even hear it.

In 2d, percussion would be available. But in addition I think they would be able to play intruments that required blowing.

yes, both of those would work, although the blowing instrument would easily fall apart

But in addition, we also have the ability to create and play stringed intruments. I think these can be created in 2d, although the bionian wouldn't be able to play it b/c he wouldn't be able to pluck it.

a 2D being would not have to pluck the string to play it.
they would simply have a string, which is tethered to the ground somehow in two points. so in a sense, it is a line segment.
then, the bionian would repeatedly strike the string, thereby making sounds.
the bionians would also have to work in groups, and have ub3r synchronizing skills, or else they would be all off.
they would have to work in groups because one person can only play two "strings" at most. and you need more people to play different sized strings to create different sounds

[Nick]

In 1d I think the only possible instrument would be some sort of drum, which the musician would just bang itself into to produce sound.

music in the first dimension would not work becuase the 1D being would need space to "bang" himself.
also, even after he "banged" himself, the only thing that would vibrate is himself. so that doesn't really make sense.
i also think that a 1D being cannot talk, as they do in Flatland(a romance of many dimensions). that is because they would simply have no room to operate their mouth. also, even if it could produce a sound (the being), then it would only vibrate on a 1D axis, which is simply a point, so i don't understand how higher dimenisonal beings would even hear it.

In 2d, percussion would be available. But in addition I think they would be able to play intruments that required blowing.

yes, both of those would work, although the blowing instrument would easily fall apart

But in addition, we also have the ability to create and play stringed intruments. I think these can be created in 2d, although the bionian wouldn't be able to play it b/c he wouldn't be able to pluck it.

a 2D being would not have to pluck the string to play it.
they would simply have a string, which is tethered to the ground somehow in two points. so in a sense, it is a line segment.
then, the bionian would repeatedly strike the string, thereby making sounds.
the bionians would also have to work in groups, and have ub3r synchronizing skills, or else they would be all off.
they would have to work in groups because one person can only play two "strings" at most. and you need more people to play different sized strings to create different sounds

Just out of curiosity, did you read the whole thread? Particularly the post above yours?

[papernuke]

Just out of curiosity, did you read the whole thread? Particularly the post above yours?

[/quote]
actually, i didn't read the rest of the thread.

[kingmaz]

Hello I'm new and tetraspace is a pretty new concept to me also, so I'm indebted to the knowledgable posters here for explaining some of the concepts. This forum and this topic in particular are most interesting.

For the moment, I'll consider rhythm as it's the one thing I know a little about. If a rhythm in realmspace is written down, one would use a sheet of paper and assign a time signature of, say, 4/4 to it. In a tetraspace, would it be fair to say that a tetrarhythm (tetrhythm?) would be notated on a swock and perhaps a time signature of 4/4/4 be used?

Perhaps, the nearest we get to this is a polyrhythm, where two or more distinct rhythms are overlaid. The complexity of these may create a bewildering array of sounds approximating towards a tetrythm. However even if two quite different rhythms are used such, as 4/4 and 11/8, this would only be analogous to 2d Fred imagining a cube in 3d in his limited notion. Here [A], [B], [C], [D] on the left are elements of a realmic polyrhythm, written on sheets, but [ABCD] on the right might be analogous to a true tetrhythm on a swock.

[wintersolstice]

I saw this thread months ago, but never properly looked at it.

I was thinking:

A blowing instrument would fall apart in 2D (as has been mentioned above!)
in 3D it could have a hole (to blow into) without falling apart
in 4D it could have a hole (to blow it) without falling apart,
but it could also have a "chasm" (to do something else ) without falling apart

So maybe in tetraspace you could have a "chasm instrument"!

And what about the holes on the outside,(they could be holes or chasms) that are used to play it. (on the chasm instrument only though)

[wintersolstice]

I've considered the "sheet/string instruments etc" in more depth.

instruments you can have:

3D string

4D string
sheet

5D string
sheet
swock

6D string
sheet
swock
tetrock (whatever you'd call it!)

what you can do

3D bow and pluck

4D bow and pluck
trow and truck! (but only a string instrument)

5D bow and pluck
trow and truck (but only string or sheet intruments)
tetrow tetruck (but only string instrument)

6D Bow and pluck
trow and pluck (but only string, sheet or swock instruments)
tetrow and tetruck (but only string or sheet instruments)
pentow and pentuck (but only string instrument)

(these different things youcan do depend on how the "strings etc" are positioned in space)

[PWrong]

You can use sheets in 3D i.e. banging a drum. If you pluck a sheet in 4D it might sound similar to banging a drum. It has two directions to vibrate in, so it might just sound like two drums. However if you bow a sheet you could get a long drawn out sound, like a cross between a drum and a violin. Or maybe it would just sound like scraping a violin bow on a drum, and not be interesting at all. You could bow a sheet either with a regular bow (a string attached to a stick) or a trow (a sheet attached to a plank).

[wintersolstice]

You can use sheets in 3D i.e. banging a drum. If you pluck a sheet in 4D it might sound similar to banging a drum. It has two directions to vibrate in, so it might just sound like two drums. However if you bow a sheet you could get a long drawn out sound, like a cross between a drum and a violin. Or maybe it would just sound like scraping a violin bow on a drum, and not be interesting at all. You could bow a sheet either with a regular bow (a string attached to a stick) or a trow (a sheet attached to a plank).

I'm refering to having several "sheet's" together (bowing or plucking a set of sheets together, not an individual one, sorry I should have been more specific!)

[PWrong]

But you don't pluck several strings together, except to play a chord. And you can technically play a chord on drums. You can't have the sheets on top of each other in 3D like a guitar (because you'd have to go through one sheet to bang the next one), but you can have them separate. If you think about it a xylophone is really a collection of drums, in our loose sense of the word.

[wintersolstice]

You can't have the sheets on top of each other in 3D like a guitar.

I never said you could
but it seems you can in 4D (it was mentioned earlier in this thread )

But you don't pluck several strings together, except to play a chord.

no you don't pluck several strings together, I meant one at at time in a line, one after the other(or have I got that wrong!)

Might be time I explain this in detail

If you postion the bow (on the sheets) so that it goes through them and then bring it in to the 4D (but keep it in the same place relative to the original 3 dimensions, and you could bow it, this is like putting a bow through strings in planespace, to pentrate the strings then bringing into 3D to bow them.

a trow is a "board" with a sheet used for bowing strings aranged in a "realm" instead of a plane so you can't do that in 3D (without penetrating the strings) but you can in 4D (in two directions)

if you had a rod you could pluck all the strings in a line (of this same arrangement) at once, (that's what "truck" means)

I hope that explains it (sorry I'm not very good at explaining things!)