Does God exist?

Discussions about the possibility of consciousness, free will, spirits, deities, religions and so on, and how these might interact with time travel, the Big Bang, many worlds and so on.

Re: Does God exist?

Postby Nick » Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:47 pm

I was merely trying to turn the course of this discussion away from this pointless philosophical chit chat.

Technically, since everything we're discussing hinges on past events, that we can not be sure ever happened since most come from texts from dead religions, nothing we're discussing is falsifiable, making philosophical anyway.

For example, the nearest quarry to a pyramid is like what, 200 miles away.

Is it not possible for their to be other, much closer quarries that we have not found? Or have been completely used up and are now nothing but desert?

It is so logical that the people back then couldn't describe what they are seeing.

There is quite a difference between consistent & possible, and logical. Consistent & possible includes the 9-11 conspiracy, while logical includes evolution and relativity. Please don't take that as an insult, I'm not trying to compare aliens visiting the Earth to the 9-11 conspiracy theory, just that they are both in the same broad category. I have watched the entire documentary (all the parts) that you linked to, and most of the video can be explained. The problem I have with the video is it's dangerously convincing. As I was watching, I was agreeing with it every step of the way... until I realized how it was being presented. They would show you one tribe's monument/earth drawing/city, explain to you what you were looking at (so far so good), then draw the conclusion for you (I can live with that), then say that's it's ridiculously improbable for this to have been made by humans alone (which I don't like). If a tribe named a lake "The pouncing jaguar", you shouldn't assume that it was named because an alien was hovering over it and told the humans to call it that; while the idea is possible, you could also say that the tribe made a map of it, looked at it, and noticed it looked like a jaguar.

What I'm trying to say is, it's an interesting possibility, and it's definitely worth discussing, but it is philosophy, and all of it can't come from a single documentary (even if it is narrated by Rod Serling).
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"All evidence of truth comes only from the senses" - Friedrich Nietzsche

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Re: Does God exist?

Postby malkuth » Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:38 am

I haven't really watched the documentary. Read the book, though.
Also, this is but one source. I'm sure you've heard of Eric Von Daniken, who also discuses the topic. Then there's a book called 'Where go thou man' (this is my free translation, i don't know weather it was ever translated in English), that discuses biblical texts from a scientific perspective.
How stupid do you think I am? I mean... it's not that I'm not, but not that stupid.
As far as the 9/11 conspiracy is concerned, i know nothing about that, but if there are substantial evidence for whatever happened there...
Other planes lie beyond the reach of normal sense and common roads

But they are no less real than what we see or touch or feel

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Postby zero » Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:41 am

gerren wrote:The existence of God is much more simple, as it can only deal with mostly science and probability . . .

I disagree. Unless you first clearly identify which god you wish to consider, the entire issue is clouded by the haze generated by a legion of different intended meanings. Humans have a lot of different god-ideas, after all, and the matter is not so simple as it may appear when presented with a single word that's supposed to cover all the widely divergent -- and often contrary -- notions.

Science and probability both require greater attention to detail than has been offered here.
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Re: Does God exist?

Postby zero » Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:46 am

malkuth wrote:Then there's a book called 'Where go thou man' (this is my free translation, i don't know weather it was ever translated in English), that discuses biblical texts from a scientific perspective.

Asimov's Guide to the Bible (in English) is probably going to be a more interesting and insightful read in any language.
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Re: Does God exist?

Postby Super Hans » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:11 pm

Hello all first post here :)

As far as this whole debate goes I think that even though the burden of proof is on the believer, the unbeliever can still put forward good arguments without claiming omniscience himself. In the same way a mathematician can proof that root 2 is irrational, despite the fact that this would imply that is knows all infinity of rational numbers and that root 2 is not one of them (clearly impossible), the athiest can know gods do not exist without knowing about everything that does exist.

For example, here on Earth, there has been a belief in gods in virtually all civilisations, past and present. It has undoubtedly caused more suffering than good in at least some of those civilisations (take medieval Europe, or the Aztec empire as an example). If a god did exist, he would not have revealed himself to these people out of his love for them (as he wouldnt want them to suffer). As they do believe in him then the only option is that they believe in him through no action of the god. Clearly then it is very unlikely indeed that their beliefs are true (I would go as far as saying infinitely unlikely, due to the infinite amount of possible beliefs with only one being true).

Even without reasons to disbelieve, the burden of belief is on the believer, and on each individual believer to have personally received enough evidence to believe in a god. It is good evidence against any god, that most (if not all) of his believers have their beliefs due to the action of other humans, and not himself, (why else would religion be so closly tied to culture, and family?). Extending this to the humans doing the telling, it only takes one person to have made up a religion in the past for it to exist now. All of this is more than enough reason to be a strong athiest, whereas everyone who is unaware of reasons not to believe should, as far as I can see, at least be a weak athiest.
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Re: Does God exist?

Postby wehavemoreltd » Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:31 pm

why would you ask such a dumb question , like that , if you dont know then you dont think he does , keep it to yourself , stop talking about something you dont know, anyone can tell you yes but you'll never know till you see him yourself.
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Re: Does God exist?

Postby Max88831 » Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:17 pm

Well I'm an atheist. I dont regularly believe in god but when i think about it, all the mysteries of science like anti matter or the 4th Dimension, its hard to belive that there isnt a being made of antimatter or in the 4th Dimension. They could be all powerful for all you know. Maybe guardian angels are just regular citizens in a 4th Dimensional world that protects us. In the end I really dont know. All I know is that there is something controlling our lives and events other than ourselves, that is unexplainable by science. I might not know what it is but I am sure that something like that exists, cause right down to it the world is just a clean slate and anything goes....
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Postby Lumencha » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:28 am

Nick wrote:Why bother with the test? If you fail, there is suffering. Why would a benevolent, omnipotent God create something with the understanding and knowledge that he would be creating pain and misery?

Free will in combination with ignorance is the root of all suffering. God is everything including you and me and He suffers as us. God isn't a "person" or separate being so the idea that "He" is above somewhere in the clouds is incorrect.

The root of all "sin" is separation. This is the beginning of all suffering and was the cause of the original Gods/Angels/Lucifer's fall into lower dimensions of reality. They used their free will to attempt to be powerful and separate from the Whole Unified God realm. After this they fell from their expanding states of consciousness and in most cases forgot who they were.

This is where we all are now on planet Earth. If you are in a 3D physical body on Earth at some time in the distant past you said NO to God and tried to be a separate ego. The whole "spiritual path" is the process of remembering who we really are so we can be reunited with the Universal Consciousness or God. In India the word Yoga means Union and by the process of daily deep meditation one can gradually evolve and eventually become what they call Enlightened or Self- Realized.

Read Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahansa Yogananda to find out more.
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Re: Does God exist?

Postby goy vey » Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:08 am

As a devout Roman Catholic, my answer to the question this topic asks is emphatically yes.

PWrong wrote:Nothing wrong with chaos. Chaos keeps things stable, yet interesting. If God was in control, either the world would cease to exist or degenerate into a boring utopia.[

Perhaps this is why the universe is not perfect. ;)

Personally, I think a lot of what makes life so wonderful and interesting is also what makes it so grotesque; it's not a perfect world, and we are not perfect people. But in growing closer to God I manage to infuse my life with a little meaning regardless.

I think if I knew the christian God exists, I would have to act like a good christian to avoid going to hell. Even though acting that way would go against my natural sense of right and wrong.

Very perceptive. I think the main point here is that Christians do not objectively know God exists. They have faith, faith based on love. This is another good argument for God choosing not to reveal Himself directly, though I have my own theories on that.

There are a lot of powerful arguments for the existence of God that do not directly rely on revealed, scriptural truth, e.g. teleological arguments. But while this may furnish you with a dim, intellectual understanding of some "greater being" nothing but prayer and deep, thoughtful, open-minded questioning of your basic assumptions about life will lead you to the truth.

My own journey was long, bewildering, and looking back, rather comic. I don't presume to try and duplicate my experiences for you. The spiritual journey is a personal thing, and given how very chancy and doubt-filled the road I took was, I don't think anything particularly bad will befall atheists or agnostics in the next life, not if they have a genuine love for truth. And most of them that I have met do. This puts me at odds with a great many Christians, but the way I figure it, God is the highest, greatest Good, a being of pure love. It makes a great deal of sense to me that God will reach out and preserve all but the most objectively vile souls, who chose of their own will to drift away from the Good and thus will be annihalated in death. But that is a bit off topic. :oops:

Anyway. The point is, if you want to come to God, you have to chase after the divine, the beautiful, whatever makes your soul soar. And if you find God somewhere in there, as I did, well and good. And if you remain agnostic or atheist, I think you will at least be better for the searching. :)
"As a youth I prayed, 'Give me chastity and continence, but not yet.'"
- St. Augustine
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Re: Does God exist?

Postby zero » Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:49 am

goy vey wrote:Anyway. The point is, if you want to come to God, you have to chase after the divine, the beautiful, whatever makes your soul soar. And if you find God somewhere in there, as I did, well and good.

And if you do not, that's just as well and good.

And if you remain agnostic or atheist, I think you will at least be better for the searching. :)

That depends. Have you noticed the holy horrors that some people find on this quest for "Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge of things without parallel" -- ? A lot of people would be better off if they spent their lives doing something more productive than pretending in traditional (or custom-made) make believe.
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Re: Does God exist?

Postby anatomy » Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:55 am

:D of coarse god exists.when you stand in front of your mirror haven't you noticed that the dust you are looking at walks and talks
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Re: Does God exist?

Postby PWrong » Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:08 am

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Re: Does God exist?

Postby wendy » Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:10 am

What is misery, if not the fire to temper the soul? The iron is better for being in the fire.
The dream you dream alone is only a dream
the dream we dream together is reality.
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