Does God exist?

Discussions about the possibility of consciousness, free will, spirits, deities, religions and so on, and how these might interact with time travel, the Big Bang, many worlds and so on.

Does God exist?

Postby duraultra » Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:59 am

I bet some of you have answered this question already on this forum, but I'm bored and had to ask.

I personally do not believe in God, but I am also not one to flat out say he doesn't exist. I don't hold anything against people who believe in Him, unless they try to force their religion upon other people or say "you're going to hell!" or something silly like that. To me, His existence just doesn't seem logical. I haven't ever seen him or felt him, so it's hard for me to believe when people actually claim this. People get mad at me for this all the time. They'll say, "If God doesn't exist, then why are so many people wrong about believing in him?"
Well, all those ancient Greeks and Romans believed in all that crazy action with the many different gods that I'm sure you all know about, but we don't still stand by that today obviously. How could all of them been wrong? I usually don't get an answer...

Also, I just remembered something interesting one of my teachers did once. He asked the class to write a paper arguing that his hypothetical imaginary friend does not exist. My teacher said his imaginary friend definitely existed, but that he couldn't make his friend talk or make any sign to prove his existence. The next day, everyone had their papers arguing that the imaginary friend could not possibly exist. We also had to come up with an experiment testing his existence, but that's besides the point. Anyway, we went through almost everyone's paper then my teacher said, "What if I gave my imaginary friend a name? What if his name is God."
The class freaked out!!! Everyone was shouting, "that's totally different!"
Well, I guess it is different...but I still thought it was a good point. And funny how my teacher sort of tricked the class.

Well, that's just about it...tell me what you think! Oh yeah, I should probably say that it would be nice to believe it God, it's not that I don't want to, because the whole idea of God is a comforting thought. Maybe that's why he exists, to comfort people. I just don't think it's logical, which is why I can't believe in Him. That'd be cool if he were in 4D though...that would explain why we can't see him!
Last edited by duraultra on Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby PWrong » Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:16 am

Does God exist?

Nope, for the reasons you already stated. Also, my ethical philosophy is useless if you assume that any being can arbitrarily create moral laws.

I don't hold anything against people who believe in Him, unless they try to force their religion upon other people or say "you're going to hell!" or something silly like that.
I disagree here. Religious people have every right to tell me I'm going to hell.

Well, I guess it is different...but I still thought it was a good point. And funny how my teacher sort of tricked the class.

Great story.

Oh yeah, I should probably say that it would be nice to believe it God, it's not that I don't want to, because the whole idea of God is a comforting thought.

Not for me. I can't stand the idea of someone watching everything I do, planning my death, and judging whether to make me spend eternity suffering with a bunch of boring people, or send me to hell instead.

That'd be cool if he were in 4D though...that would explain why we can't see him!
Except he's supposed to be everywhere. Maybe he's just invisible.
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Postby duraultra » Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:02 pm

There's no doubt in my mind that religious people have the right to tell me I'm going to hell; it just pisses me off when they do.

Not for me. I can't stand the idea of someone watching everything I do, planning my death, and judging whether to make me spend eternity suffering with a bunch of boring people, or send me to hell instead.


I actually never though of it like that, and I don't know why because that is all pretty obvious. I was thinking something along the lines of it being nice to know God is there for you when all else fails. But what you said (the bad) definitely outweighs the good. Also I've never really felt like I needed God...so I my reasoning is pointless!
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Postby bo198214 » Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:05 pm

Hey but God is not to comfort you in bad times ...
For me its more a principle, perhaps like the Goedelian incompleteness theorems. But in nature and consciousness.

And do I also have the right as nonreligous people to say, you go to hell! ? ;)
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Postby Nick » Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:28 pm

PWrong and I seem to have the exact same beliefs. I agree with him every step of the way.

I would not find God comforting to believe in either. Here is some dialogue between me and my friend:

Friend: "Why don't you believe in God"
I: "Two reasons; one, because it's not logical"
(we went off on a tangent discussion here, and then later, he asked me what the second reason was)
I: "two, because the idea of a god is discomforting"
Friend: "You find it more comforting to believe that when you die, that's it, the end of conscousness?" (He looked rather smug and proud at stating this point)
I: "I find it more comforting to believe that this (I gesture around the room) is more than just a test"
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Postby bo198214 » Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:21 pm

what has the existence of God to do with reincarnation theory?
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Postby duraultra » Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:38 pm

Nothing?
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Postby Nick » Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:10 am

bo198214 wrote:what has the existence of God to do with reincarnation theory?


I never said anything about reincarnation.

And pick a better choice of words; "theory" implies that it has been proven to be likely beyond reasonable doubt (why do you think they call it evolution theory, big bang theory, and Einstein's theories of Relativity?). Perhaps what you meant to say was speculation?
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Postby papernuke » Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:38 am

PWrong wrote:Except he's supposed to be everywhere. Maybe he's just invisible.



But if he's everywhere but is invisible, then wouldn't we be bumping into him whenever we move?

Edit by irockyou: fixed your quote
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Postby bo198214 » Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:54 am

irockyou wrote:I: "two, because the idea of a god is discomforting"
Friend: "You find it more comforting to believe that when you die, that's it, the end of conscousness?"


yes, not you rocky, but your friend and not about reincarnation theory but about survival of consciousness after bodily death (which is also a consequence of reincarnation theory).
So isnt it possible to assume a god and despite the ceasing of consciousness after death?
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Postby Nick » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:56 am

Yeah, survival into bodily death; into heaven or hell. Life after death. I guess he could be referring to reincarnation... but he's Christian. I probably should have mentioned that ;)
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Postby houserichichi » Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:47 am

There could still be a god who just lets us die without an afterlife/reincarnation...but then that god is nothing more than an a-hole. Since I don't enjoy the company of a-holes I simply don't invite him into my theories.

Worse yet, the god could send you to Wyoming when you die. Ew!
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Postby Hugh » Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:55 pm

The question of whether God exists or not is one that each of us should have the freedom to answer and believe however we want to. Each of us finds the reasons to believe or disbelieve as we live our lives and experience different things. I don't think that there is "only one way" or "one truth" to be found for everyone. Each one finds his own path of understanding life and its purpose.

There may or may not actually be an ever-existing creator God. The "something" that makes up the universe could have always existed in some form or another instead just as easily, so it then becomes a personal choice.

Personally, I do believe in the existence of a God. There is an intelligence to the design of what I see around me, and experience in my life. There is a reason, a purpose for things. There is also the presence of love and compassion, of kindness and caring. Those are good things.

One might say that God doesn't exist because there is the presence of evil and badness, but in reality, you can't have goodness without the badness to compare it to. If there were no evil, then there would be no good either. When I first started to understand the Yin Yang symbol, I started to appreciate the importance and balance of what it symbolizes with regards to our existence.

You can delve into understanding life at whatever level you'd like. One can live a simple life, or study the deepest parts of what we see on a macroscopic or microscopic level.

Isn't it fascinating, isn't it impressive when you look around you and try to fathom it all?

For whatever time that I have left in my life, I am grateful that I have been able to be here and had the chance to be a part of it all. What a wonderful gift, this gift of life.
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Postby Universally_thinking » Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:55 pm

i dont belive in god but the egyptions did,greeks,romans and all the advanced races and many countries. When I ask the constilations (pray) i sometimes do feel something unexplainable. If you can`t see something doesn`t mean it doesn`t exist eg:air.

ps: i am very sceptical about god but theres things i can`t explain.
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Postby sondizzle » Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:02 pm

i think it is fascinating that most people "find" god after something terrible happens in their life, or a loss of innocence perhaps. people can create god if they like, and maybe that is the only way that god can exist. when it comes down to it, i dont think it matters one way or another.

imagine two possibilities:

1. god exists, and has all along. lets also give god infinite attributes and greatness...like most believers do. now the entire universe and everything imaginable become absolutely perfect, everything is how it should be, and god is and always has been in complete control.

2. there is no god, and never was. the universe and everything imaginable are how they are, and chaos replaces gods control.

either way, we as humans don't have any control over it. death isn't going to change, it is what it is, and we can never do anything about that.

so, say either option is true (one of them has to be), would that knowledge change how you lived your life? would you change who you are/have become if you knew a definite answer?
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Postby PWrong » Sat Oct 14, 2006 4:46 am

1. god exists, and has all along. lets also give god infinite attributes and greatness...like most believers do. now the entire universe and everything imaginable become absolutely perfect, everything is how it should be, and god is and always has been in complete control.

If God's existence implies a perfect universe, then God clearly doesn't exist, because the universe is hardly perfect.

2. there is no god, and never was. the universe and everything imaginable are how they are, and chaos replaces gods control.

Nothing wrong with chaos. Chaos keeps things stable, yet interesting. If God was in control, either the world would cease to exist or degenerate into a boring utopia.

so, say either option is true (one of them has to be), would that knowledge change how you lived your life? would you change who you are/have become if you knew a definite answer?

I think if I knew the christian God exists, I would have to act like a good christian to avoid going to hell. Even though acting that way would go against my natural sense of right and wrong.
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Postby houserichichi » Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:25 am

PWrong wrote:If God's existence implies a perfect universe, then God clearly doesn't exist, because the universe is hardly perfect.


It could be god's definition of perfect, how are we supposed to know?

PWrong wrote:I think if I knew the christian God exists, I would have to act like a good christian to avoid going to hell. Even though acting that way would go against my natural sense of right and wrong.


If the womens would have to cover themselves up more I'd just move off the planet to some other sensible place where god had no influence, damn it!
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Postby PWrong » Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:26 am

It could be god's definition of perfect, how are we supposed to know?

If I created a bunch of stuff and called it a perfect universe, should the bunch of stuff believe me?
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Postby sondizzle » Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:28 am

How could god create anything but a perfect universe? The working definition of god is the most ultimate of ultimates, the most supreme being. It has to create a perfect universe. Who knows, it could have intentionally made chaos.
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Postby PWrong » Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:22 am

It has to create a perfect universe.

That seems like an unusual restriction for someone who can do anything he wants.

I'm not a perfect pianist, but occasionally I can play a piece perfectly, by getting lucky and not making any mistakes. Beethoven and Mozart were pretty close to perfect, but they had no obligation to write perfect music all the time. They could have written crap if they felt like it.
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Postby batmanmg » Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:15 pm

first off no you can't play a peice perfectly unless its your own in wich case any way you play it could be perfect. becuase i bet the composer would come in and say no no no your butchering the whole peice.

second... perfect? what do you mean by perfect... the only defonition that can suffice for this arguement is that it was created the way it was meant to be created... if i make a cube out of clay and put a dent in it on purpose, i could claim that it is a perfect peice, while others may say its not perfect,,, your cube has a dent in it... i'd respond with its supposed to... and my perfection is maintained....

any other judgemental idea of perfection would require extensive knowledge not only the inner workings of our universe but also the inner workings of several other universes to compare it to. (just one other wont' suffice becuase whos to say the end of the spectrum ours is on is the bad side) and even when you do have several comparisons you would need a perfect being (gods twin maybe) to critique it becuase since man is failible his oppinion can't be taken so absolutely...
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Postby sondizzle » Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:27 pm

i guess perfect could be subjective, but that is where faith comes into play. if one believes in god, i think that they are obliged to give god every benefit of the doubt, and are required to accept that all things are as god wants them. since god is the ultimate of ultimates and a *perfect* being, this is how it has to be, one cannot doubt anything god does.
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Postby Nick » Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:06 pm

PWrong wrote:
It has to create a perfect universe.

That seems like an unusual restriction for someone who can do anything he wants.


OK, let me rephrase that for sun: why would he want to? What reason would a perfect God desire creating an imperfect universe? Why would a perfect God desire creating anything at all? Technically, he would be content with anything.
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Postby sondizzle » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:52 pm

well, god's motives are god's motives. I could never even begin to understand why god does anything.

i think that if one does believe in god they have to be content with everything.

if god is a perfect being, everything it did would be perfect, right? if not, then god is not a perfect being, and probably not considered god anymore.

maybe a definition should be established for god.
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Postby Nick » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:17 pm

sondizzle wrote:I could never even begin to understand why god does anything.


You're speaking under the assumption that he exists. What you just said is analogous to this:
"Yeah, I have a friend Bob. No, he's not imaginary. Look, I don't know why noone else can physically touch, smell, see, or hear him, but I know he's there! No, I can't see him either... what's your point?"

It's more likely that he doesn't exist than that he does exist and that he magically found some reason to create. A content God would find no reason to create. It seems like the work in creating and watching us to make sure we don't kill ourselves would make him/her/it discontent.

maybe a definition should be established for god.


All-powerful, All-knowing being that has always existed and created everything.

One more thing I wonder, as well; the Universe does not require a God to exist. Science has proved that. Therefore, "the Universe" seems much more likely, by Occam's razor, than "the Universe and God".
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Postby gerren » Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:51 pm

A content God would find no reason to create.


Yes, he would. Are you getting this from the website you posted on the other topic? If so, then God would have a reason to create us. God created us out of love, and nothing else. Say one man was perfect in every sense. That does not mean that he wouldnt do anything with his life but sit around.

the Universe does not require a God to exist. Science has proved that


If I remember by your definition, you said that science cannot disprove, prove, or acquire information about a "God", so how can you now say that the universe doesnt require a God to exist. Science cannot prove that God cant exist. If you can go back in time between 4.5 and 3.9 billion years ago, and you had a microscope all over earth, then you could prove that "evolution of self replicating molecules" would not need God, but that right there is a very unlikely theory anyways.
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Postby Nick » Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:59 pm

Yes, you would. Look at communism; profit was shared whether they work or not, so obviously they would choose to not work. If someone is perfect, than what would he gain from creating something? Creating things are laborous, and the result would not be any more entertaining than if you didn't have anything to begin with (because you start off perfectly content).

Science can prove is something is possible, but cannot actually prove something in the past that has not been observed happened.
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Postby gerren » Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:05 am

Yes, creating something is laborous, but does it matter when youre omnipotent? As I have said before, we were created as a by-product of God's love, if you will. He wanted someone else to have the ability to experience his love in heaven for all of eternity, but had to pass a test on earth as a human being at first.
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Postby Nick » Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:34 am

Why bother with the test? If you fail, there is suffering. Why would a benevolent, omnipotent God create something with the understanding and knowledge that he would be creating pain and misery?
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Postby gerren » Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:40 am

he would be creating pain and misery


God did not create the pain or misery (do you mean hell? or do you mean just pain and misery?), but Satan/Lucifer (I forgot which one) created hell. A person decides if he wants to fail God's test.
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