Meta = Beyond

Discussions about the possibility of consciousness, free will, spirits, deities, religions and so on, and how these might interact with time travel, the Big Bang, many worlds and so on.

Re: Meta = Beyond

Postby Klitzing » Tue May 21, 2013 10:31 pm

wendy wrote:... The attached bitmap is for Richard Klitzing, who has not heard of Hundert being used to represent vi scores in german.


Okay, I see that there seem to have existed other "hundert" interpretations within Germany too.

Well 104, as your previously linked paper showed, rather is to be understood as "plus additional 4 ones for grant". So that one is out of scope here.

But then, that recent pic shows that this usage of "großes hundert" occurs in the nothern part of Germany only, esp. at trading ports: Danzig and Lübeck ("lübisches ..."). Thus this might be the influence of the Scotts of that paper.

I, on the other hand, live in the southern parts of Germany. In fact quite close to the Limes line. Thus here the roman numerals are known completely undistorted.

But, as I've already stated, the older germanic numeric super-units like Dutzend (12) and Groß (144 = 12 x 12) - and even that Schock (60 - mentioned in your recent pic) are known.

Usually 60 then is rather seen to be 5 x 12 than 3 x 20 nor as 120 : 2. In fact, even so oranges or bottles of beer are easily arranged as 4 x 5, and so 20 might be some prominent trading unit, it did not occure here as counting unit in general. Something like the english "scores" (20) is not known here. I doubt there even is no locally known translation either.

--- rk
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Re: Meta = Beyond

Postby wendy » Wed May 29, 2013 6:46 am

The book on 'Old English and its Closest Relatives" by Orrin W Robinson, deals with the germanic dialects and languages in all of their forms.

The languages under "Old High German" correspond to the Elbe-germans, who migrated southwards into Thuringa, Bavaria, Swabia, Alset, and Longbardy. The lombards have disappeared under the italians, but the rest are still there. In any case, one of the readings of old text is Matthew 13.2-9. This contains a rather unlikely word "zehunzugfalto", which the translation hints are 'ten', 'ty', 'fold'. This word is in a sentence with sehszugfalto (sixty-fold) and thizugfalto (thirty-fold). It's in as you sow, so shall ye reap, a hundred-fold or sixty-fold or thirty-fold.

The existance of a word teenty in this context suggest that 'hundert' probably meant something else. It occurs in the gothic bible, in an expression that the hundreds are counted teentywise, and it is known that in OE and Norse, hundred meant six scores.

Not only is this evidence that the hundred was vi score at the time the germans came to the limes, it would be supprisingly unexplained if even to the hill-germans, that hundred did not mean 120, as it's a common Protogermanic construction that was only displaced by the lædin/christian 'culture'.
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Re: Meta = Beyond

Postby rr6 » Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:29 pm

wendy wrote:You really ought look up the dictionary before naming things. Even the dictionary on wiki is suffice for this.


Huh? I did look and posted such definitions. You aparrently did not read those dictionary definitionsI posted or just igoring the facts of my post.

"Meta" from greek = beyond.

Like so many words in the dictionary there are can exist many diffferrent meanings associated with a word. I used the dictionary to verify my choice of defintion and posted the results to which you ignore, or just plain refuse to accept.

The truth is out there for those with sincere desire to and some effort to find it. imho Tho some truths may never be verified by the scientific process.

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Re: Meta = Beyond

Postby wendy » Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:40 pm

meta is only in the sense of 'beyond' in the sense that volume 6 is beyond volume 5. meta is the same as english /mid/, with, in the midst of. a metacarple is the pad on a dog's paw that is in the middle of the toe pads (ie the part corresponding to the palm).

one does well to consider the etymologies of words, and that because there is an intersection between the greekish meta and english beyond, that every meaning of beyond is satisfied by meta. This is simply not true.
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Re: Meta = Beyond

Postby rr6 » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:17 pm

Sorry Wendy, none of your below changes my use of word in the context as I used it. You appear to be off on some irrelevant--- for most part ---that is beyond or outside of my givens as stated and intended and perahaps minimally or briefly tangent to my comments.

And again, your were incorrect in your assessment that I did not use a dictionary, and/or your inference/implications or direct statement, that, meta does not equal beyond, and incorrect in regards to some dictionaries.

Your apologies and/or acknowledge of my givens as stated will be appreciated if and when you find it in your heart to do so. :nod:

Non-occupied space is metaphsyical existence i.e. non-occupied space is beyond and/or outside of our occupied space we call Universe.

All abstract concepts as mind/intellignce is metaphysical.

Gravity is metaphysical because it is beyond and/or outside of our physical, occupied space called Universe, however, gravity is tangental and has and affect on our physical existence. imho

r6

wendy wrote:meta is only in the sense of 'beyond' in the sense that volume 6 is beyond volume 5. meta is the same as english /mid/, with, in the midst of. a metacarple is the pad on a dog's paw that is in the middle of the toe pads (ie the part corresponding to the palm).

one does well to consider the etymologies of words, and that because there is an intersection between the greekish meta and english beyond, that every meaning of beyond is satisfied by meta. This is simply not true.
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Re: Meta = Beyond

Postby wendy » Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:18 am

metaphysics is studied because the subject is in our midst, but beyond our ken, not somewhere remote. Beyond is here an idiom, not a real placement.
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Re: Meta = Beyond

Postby rr6 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:14 pm

Meta is greek for beyond. Do a more meaningful reading of my given statements and a search of the internet for various dictionaries, as I have already done and you incorrectly accuse me of not doing.

I will accept your apologies and corrections if and when you find it in your heart to give them.

Non-occupied space beyond our finite occupied space called Universe is at the top of the cosmic heirachy. Abstract metaphysics of mind/inteligence is just another percetion of the word metaphysical. I've clearly laid-out three associated definitions of metaphysical and all three are related to our finite occupied space we call Universe.

Simple stuff that the more educated have trouble grasping because of their preconditioned concepts. imho

r6

wendy wrote:metaphysics is studied because the subject is in our midst, but beyond our ken, not somewhere remote. Beyond is here an idiom, not a real placement.
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Re: Meta = Beyond

Postby wendy » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:00 am

Meta (from the Greek preposition μετά = "after", "beyond", "adjacent", "self", also commonly used in the form μετα- as a prefix in Greek, with variants μετ- before vowels and μεθ- "meth-" before aspirated vowels), is a prefix used in English (and other Greek-owing languages) to indicate a concept which is an abstraction from another concept, used to complete or add to the latter.


You should really read the full text to see exactly where the greekish word is translated to, actually to. Its use is to suppose an additional concept to add to a later, not something that is wildly remote or beyond the hills. If you read the wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta from end to end, and not jump on the first instance of some word ye want it to mean, then you will see what i have been saying is indeed correct.

rr6 wrote:I will accept your apologies and corrections if and when you find it in your heart to give them.


How modest.

rr6 wrote:Non-occupied space beyond our finite occupied space called Universe is at the top of the cosmic heirachy. Abstract metaphysics of mind/inteligence is just another percetion of the word metaphysical. I've clearly laid-out three associated definitions of metaphysical and all three are related to our finite occupied space we call Universe.


And then you blow the whole show by supposing that it's beyond our world, rather than how the metaphysical people themselves see it, in our midst. Words have primary meanings, and the primary meaning of the english use of 'meta' does not include the primary use of the english word 'beyond'. Super simple stuff, really.

rr6 wrote:Simple stuff that the more educated have trouble grasping because of their preconditioned concepts. imho


Don't know. I spent a good number of years detangling words from misuse to clear the waters for higher dimensional research. So, i think ye are wrangling with the wrong snake here, diddums.

Here's http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?ter ... in_frame=0 which specifically limits the sense of beyond to the usage i suggest.

meta- Look up meta- at Dictionary.com
word-forming element meaning 1. "after, behind," 2. "changed, altered," 3. "higher, beyond;" from Greek meta (prep.) "in the midst of, in common with, by means of, in pursuit or quest of," from PIE *me- "in the middle" (cf. German mit, Gothic miþ, Old English mið "with, together with, among;" see mid). Notion of "changing places with" probably led to senses "change of place, order, or nature," which was a principal meaning of the Greek word when used as a prefix (but also denoting "community, participation; in common with; pursuing").

Third sense, "higher than, transcending, overarching, dealing with the most fundamental matters of," is due to misinterpretation of metaphysics as "science of that which transcends the physical." This has led to a prodigious erroneous extension in modern usage, with meta- affixed to the names of other sciences and disciplines, especially in the academic jargon of literary criticism, which affixes it to just about anything that moves and much that doesn't.


Of course, the OED http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/meta-- , the reference dictionary to English, does not mention 'beyond', the closest it comes is 'transcend'.
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Re: Meta = Beyond

Postby rr6 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:47 pm

You stated I should use a dictionary before texting or some such. I did so you were in error. Meta = beyond and tho you briefly admit that it does mean beyond, you then quickly dimiss my use of that fact as stated in my givens, so you error.

I do not recall my stating that you were "incorrect" with your other assessments of the prefix 'meta".

Meta = beyond is correct and is correct as I have used it. This is no doubt tho you keep trying to change facts to make them fit your concerns and not my givens as originally stated.

I've laid out clearly, 3 differrent uses of the word metaphysical. Simple not complex as all three are associated with a beyond.

MInd/inteligence = metaphysical beyond

Non-occupied space = meta = beyond

gravity = metaphysical beyond imho.

r6

[quote="wendy"][quote]
If you read the wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta from end to end, and not jump on the first instance of some word ye want it to mean, then you will see what i have been saying is indeed correct.
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Re: Meta = Beyond

Postby wendy » Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:08 am

There are two readings of gravity, both of which would fit in your model of the universe, rather than some additional space for it.

Gravity can be presented as a radiant field of gravitons, a kind of boson. Alternately, gravity is seen as a property of space itself (specifically, its curvature). In this second reading (by Einstein), gravity arises from the tension of free space, of which there is more in the direction of masses. Things fall, not because of an external space, but because there is an excess of space in the direction of fall.

In any case, one can not suppose that because there is a percieved intersection of meanings of words in different languages, that it is fitting to pry a particular intersection, and suppose it is general. For example, the english 'always', translates into different welsh words, including one for 'on every occasion', and a different one for 'continiously'. So "The banks are always open when i go to the shops" translates at 'the banks are open on every occasion that i go to the shops', while "There is always water in the billabong", translates at "Water is in the billibong continiously".

Actuall, to say 'meta- is the greek for beyond', is wholely false. This is Liddle's greek-english dictionary on 'meta', fails to mention any sense of beyond at all!. It's not extraordinary: the greek word is exactly the same as the english midst with some different idiomatic usage.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... %3Dmeta%2F

The sense of 'beyond' only comes from an english folk-etymology on what 'metaphysics' might mean, and there in the sense of 'what comes after physics', gives only a sense of time, not place. To state that meta means 'beyond' (a word typically meaning a place), is grossly wrong.

It's generally considered that the inclusion of 'meta' = 'beyond' in the list of meanings, was a bad idea. Even in the quote i gave, they acknowledge that this overlap of meaning could be much better be served by 'transcend', which has no spacial connetations. While 'meta' typically has an abstract construct, 'beyond' rarely does, so the equity here is faulty on that ground.

Writing 'meta = beyond' is false, even if the restricted meaning of beyond is meant, since this is not implied in the title, and people who are familiar with the word meta in either greek or english usage, will evidently disagree, often over this very point. In any case, the central points of 'meta' and 'beyond', do not fall in each other's circle: it's only an obscure meaning of meta intersects witb an equally obscure meaning of beyond.

One often has various troubles with words like 'infinite' vs 'unbounded' etc. A circle or sphere is unbounded, but not infinite. On the other hand, there are infinite figures that are bounded (such as x8/3o4o). If the word confuses, one ought best avoid it, otherwise, ye will end up with many arguments about the abuse of words.

Another greekish word one has problems with is 'apeiron', which in greek, means "unbounded expance" in the sense of a desert or sea, comes to be a greekish form of ladin "infinity". In practice, it is best to keep it close to its etymological root, which is '(a) without a (peiro) perimeter'.
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Re: Meta = Beyond

Postby rr6 » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:54 pm

Writing 'meta = beyond' is false, even if the restricted meaning of beyond is meant, since this is not implied in the title, and people who are familiar with the word meta in either greek or english usage, will evidently disagree, often over this very point. In any case, the central points of 'meta' and 'beyond', do not fall in each other's circle: it's only an obscure meaning of meta intersects witb an equally obscure meaning of beyond.


It is listed in some dictionaries. If it is wrong the dictionary is wrong. Your were error to ever suggest I did not use a dictionary from out front.

It is your oppinion by some kind of convoluted inferrrence, that even tho "meta" is greek for beyond, you think that it being in a dictionary for me to use in three ways i stated is wrong. That is your oppinion.

One often has various troubles with words like 'infinite' vs 'unbounded' etc. A circle or sphere is unbounded, but not infinite. On the other hand, there are infinite figures that are bounded (such as x8/3o4o). If the word confuses, one ought best avoid it, otherwise, ye will end up with many arguments about the abuse of words.


Your the one bringing the word "unbounded" into this disscussion, not me. Non-occupied space is maco-micro infinite and embraces but does not contain our finite occupied space we call Universe. Or so I believe. This is not a difficult concept to grasp. So simple that I think most 10 years olds can grasp it.

I don't mind going off on the ultra-micro--- ergo quasi-physical ---gravitational spacetime, that lies beyond and not only embraces our finite physical/energy Universe, it also contains/coheres our finite Universe. imho

Gravity is why our finite set of energy/physical--- occupied space -- can never be created nor destroyed. Gravity is integral/integrity essence of Universe/God{ess}. imho

Once you can get beyond ypur concerns regarding "meta" maybe we can dissuss gravitational spacetime more indepth. See Fullers tensegrity as that was final best expression of what he thought in regards to expressing gravitational existence between the other parts of Universe, cohering them all into one finite whole.

Going on vacation so not sure how connected i will be.

r6
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