My opinion about god's existence

Discussions about the possibility of consciousness, free will, spirits, deities, religions and so on, and how these might interact with time travel, the Big Bang, many worlds and so on.

My opinion about god's existence

Postby bgavran3 » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:11 pm

Lets say you're the god. You're perfect. You have created everything and you can do everything you want! You can transform into anything, you can move anything around with your mind, you can increase your IQ to 10000, you know everything, you know everything what happened, everything thats happening, and everything that will happen. So, after you created everything, you are just "up there" watching people killing, torturing and raping other people. You know that. You see that. You are the smartest "beign" that ever existed, and will exist. You see people killing each other, why dont you just stop them? "God works in mysterious ways" you'll say now. But why? Why he just doesn't stop something from happening without anyone knowing it. He's god, he'll think of a way to do that. Actually, he already knows it because he knows all that will happen in future! But no! He's just standing "up there" and doing what? What? He's god, he has everything, he is everything, he knows everything. Why he even exists? Why he "loves all people"? Why would he even care for us? He can just create billons of new people and thats it.

I know about lots of other logical proofs of non-logical god's existence. I'm christian and I believed in god. But after some time, you just realize god cannot exist! If there is some true believer on this forums, I'd like him to say what he thinks about what I said.

People are becoming smarter and smarter now right? Before, people were thinking sun is a god or some animal is a god. Now they dont.
Before, people had 2000 gods, now they dont
Now we have just a few major religions and gods
So as people are becoming smarter, they're realize that god cannot exist.
But I'm still confused how come that 3 billion people (is it 3 billion? I might be wrong) are believing in god? I simply dont understand it. Why some people dedicate their lives to serve the god. God doesn't need to be served, he has everything! Why do we even have to pray to the god? He knows what we want. And if he knows that, and we do that he knows that because he knows everything, why do we have to go to the church to pray to him? God knows he want to go to the church, but we can just make a good use of that time, but he's still saying that we need to go to the church!
What makes you think god exist? Please answer



What do you all think of what I said? I know this is my first post, but I've been thinking alot about gods existence and it just doesnt seem logical.
There may be some mistakes up there, since english is not my native language
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Postby zero » Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:18 am

Why does it matter to you what other people think about this question?

Some people happen to believe in some god or other -- the varieties are endless -- and some people do not. Either way, it is up to us to make a difference in the world . . . as best we can.
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Re: My opinion about god's existence

Postby Hugh » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:47 am

Hi bgavran3, welcome to the forum. You've asked some great questions, but you also realize that no one can tell you what the true and correct answers are. That's something that each of us have to work out for ourselves, as we live our life and experience it.

First, I do believe in a creator God, that has always existed, and always will exist. I know I didn't create myself, and I know that something can't come from nothing, so something has always been around, and I choose to believe in an ever-existing God rather than an ever-existing physical universe, in whatever form.

There is a logic, a design, a beauty to the universe that I think requires there to be an intelligent Creator for it. Someone might say, well then who created God? I would say that God has always existed, so there is no need for him to have been created. It's funny to me how some scoff at this, yet believe in an ever-existing physical universe with no problem.

I don't believe it's possible for the universe to have popped into existence out of "absolute nothingness", and to believe that takes a leap of faith far greater than that which believes in an ever-existing creator.

Now, the problem of human suffering which you brought up has been one that I too have often wondered about. Why does God allow suffering?

First, we have a free will, which we can use to hurt others if we so choose. We can also use that free will to help others, if we so choose.

We can, in fact, all get together and collectively choose to not hurt each other and live together in peace and harmony, which is what God knows we have the power to do, yet, if we choose to hurt each other instead, should God be blamed? If I hurt someone, why should that person blame God instead of me? It was my fault, not God's.

Another point to realize is that we can only fully appreciate the good, when we know that the potential to do bad is available to us. I can choose to hurt my neighbour, but if I choose to be good to him instead, then the value of that good choice can be fully realized.

If God created a world in which we were only capable of doing good things, then where would the value be in that? We would just be robots, uncapable of doing anything wrong or bad. But in this world, one can appreciate the value of someone who chooses to live their life in the pursuit of goodness, rather than in doing the bad. One can look at a life lived by someone like Mother Theresa, and really appreciate the value of her kindness and love. She could have chosen to be a mass murderer instead but she didn't, she chose to love and help the poorest of the poor.

That's the freedom that God is allowing us here on Earth. The freedom to choose to do good instead of bad. That's the beauty of our life here, to be choosers of love and kindness. To help instead of hurt.

I believe that we are here for a test. God wants to see what we choose to do. Do we choose to help or hurt others?

What happens after we die is a mystery, but I believe that we will be judged on how we chose to live our life. Did we spend our short time here on Earth for the good or for the bad? Did we care about others? Did we try to help others? Did we leave a positive impression here?

That's what I like to focus on, is how I'm doing in my own pursuit of doing good and helping others. Using my free will for the good.
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Postby bgavran3 » Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:00 am

Thx for the replies but why he gave us free will? Why he even created us? He knows what we will do when he creates us, and the his reason to create us is to see what will we do, will we be good or bad... so he doesn't have to create us because he already knows it.

Imagine again you're the god. Why would you create something, give it its properties (people cant fly, but birds can, people have free will, people can talk...) and then judge us did we do good or bad by the properties you gave to us?

And another thing thats really bothering me. Lets say I want to do only good and help other people. So, I see someone walking on the street and that someone trips and he'd fell on the ground and break his arm but I catched him, he thanked me and continued to do his bussines. If I didn't save him, he'd be in hospital alive.
So after I saved him I went home to do my businnes...
Later that day a car hits that man and he dies.

So I did a good thing by saving him from breaking his arm, but I also killed him, because if I didn't save him, he'd be in the hospital alive!
And the person driving that car wasn't drunk or something, he also did only good whole day.

And zero, I didn't ask do they believe in god or not.. I asked the ones who believe (and those who dont) what made them to believe/not believe
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Postby mbr88 » Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:20 pm

edit: nevermind.
Last edited by mbr88 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Hugh » Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:42 am

bgavran3 wrote:Thx for the replies but why he gave us free will? Why he even created us? He knows what we will do when he creates us, and the his reason to create us is to see what will we do, will we be good or bad... so he doesn't have to create us because he already knows it.

He gave us a free will so that we may enjoy using it. He hopes that we will use it to help others, but knows that we may use it to hurt others instead. Even though God already knows what we will choose to do with our free will, he gives us the chance to use it. He gives us a wonderful gift called life, where we can experience consciousness, love and happiness. I am grateful for that gift, and try to thank God for it every day, for I know that one day that will change and I will die. I am hoping that my spirit will live on with God, and I can know Him more personally than I can now, and that there will be "higher levels" of consciousness and life that I can go on to.

Even if at death, I never experience anything else again, and my spirit and consciousness vanish forever, at least I will have had the gift of life for a short time here on Earth, and for that, I am grateful for.

But I feel that a God that would go through all of this creation for us, would have much more in store for us after we leave this temporary testing ground.

bgavran3 wrote:Imagine again you're the god. Why would you create something, give it its properties (people cant fly, but birds can, people have free will, people can talk...) and then judge us did we do good or bad by the properties you gave to us?


He gave us the free will to use our properties of speech, actions and intelligence for the good or bad as we see fit. We can choose to use metal to make farming tools or guns. It's our choice.

bgavran3 wrote:And another thing thats really bothering me. Lets say I want to do only good and help other people. So, I see someone walking on the street and that someone trips and he'd fell on the ground and break his arm but I catched him, he thanked me and continued to do his bussines. If I didn't save him, he'd be in hospital alive.
So after I saved him I went home to do my businnes...
Later that day a car hits that man and he dies.

So I did a good thing by saving him from breaking his arm, but I also killed him, because if I didn't save him, he'd be in the hospital alive!
And the person driving that car wasn't drunk or something, he also did only good whole day.


You would have done the right thing by saving him from breaking his arm. You had no way of knowing that he would be killed later by a car, so how could you be held responsible for it?

Don't forget that anyone who chooses to walk along a sidewalk that has cars speeding by close to it runs the risk of being accidently killed. Also, anyone who gets into a car and drives it next to a sidewalk with people walking along it runs the risk of losing control of the car and accidentally killing someone. You have to take into account the free choices of both the walker and driver in that "accidental" death.

Bgavran3, your questions are all good, and you are exploring all the possibilities of the purpose of our existence. You have an enquiring mind, and I wish you success in your quest to understand it all. :)
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Postby bgavran3 » Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:37 am

Hugh wrote:
bgavran3 wrote:And another thing thats really bothering me. Lets say I want to do only good and help other people. So, I see someone walking on the street and that someone trips and he'd fell on the ground and break his arm but I catched him, he thanked me and continued to do his bussines. If I didn't save him, he'd be in hospital alive.
So after I saved him I went home to do my businnes...
Later that day a car hits that man and he dies.

So I did a good thing by saving him from breaking his arm, but I also killed him, because if I didn't save him, he'd be in the hospital alive!
And the person driving that car wasn't drunk or something, he also did only good whole day.


You would have done the right thing by saving him from breaking his arm. You had no way of knowing that he would be killed later by a car, so how could you be held responsible for it?

Don't forget that anyone who chooses to walk along a sidewalk that has cars speeding by close to it runs the risk of being accidently killed. Also, anyone who gets into a car and drives it next to a sidewalk with people walking along it runs the risk of losing control of the car and accidentally killing someone. You have to take into account the free choices of both the walker and driver in that "accidental" death.

Bgavran3, your questions are all good, and you are exploring all the possibilities of the purpose of our existence. You have an enquiring mind, and I wish you success in your quest to understand it all. :)

But God knows that if I save him, that the man will die and if I dont save him, that he'll live but he's still telling us to save him.

In my opinion, there is no such beign that created everything and does only "good". There is no such thing as "good" and "bad". Humans, based on inputs they get, produce the output. Example: Someone points the gun at you. You automatically know he's "bad" because he's controls your existence. He's doesn't let you walk away normaly, he wants you to do what he wants.
You have no choice, and in my opinion there is no such thing as free will. Its just an illusion. You, based on inputs you get, (are you strong, is he bigger than you, are you quick...) will decide to quickly take the gun out of his hand or beg for your life. If you start thinking "I have free will, I dont have to do any of that, I can just run away!" you're wrong. I'm going to explain this in a bit different way, using logic:

Few days ago=you were thinking about what happens after you die
You start thinking what happens after you die=few seconds after you think that you have choice, that you have free will
You thinking you have free will=you start thinking about your wife and kids...
You start thinking about your wife and kids=you want to be with them
You want to be with them=you dont want to die

Your life in danger=you start thinking about death
You thinking about death=you remember that you have free will
You remember that you have free will=you start thinking about your wife and kids
You start thinking about your wife and kids=you want to be with them
You want to be with them=you dont want to die
IF you=strong, quick, bigger than the other man
THEN you=take the gun ot of man's hand
ELSE you=beg for your life

And thats it. Thats pretty much how programs in PC's work and how minds work. Minds work MUCH MORE complicated than that, with much more options, inputs and outputs.
I'm unsure did you understand me correctly, I spent good 15 mins thinking how I'll explain it. (this doesn't have to be correct, I spent alot of time thinking about it and came to this conclusion) Am I wrong about this?

I think you understand that different people might think differently about whats good and whats bad, depending what their parents told them while they were young. (a kid without parents or with really bad parents will in most cases become a murderer, thier, he wont be educated and he'll end up in jail sooner or later)

Ok, I realized I started talking about one thing and didn't end up where I thought I will probably because theres so many things I can talk about and I think are wrong.
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Postby Nick » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:56 pm

Hugh, you can't just say "Oh well he has always lived so he doesn't need to be created" for one reason:

How do you know there wasn't a singularity that has always existed, that created the big bang?

Why did it take an eternity for it to explode, you might say. I might say the same about God; why did he wait forever to create everything? If he knew the future and knew that eventually he would do it anyway, why would he wait at all? How is it even possible to wait forever? I repeat, for emphasis: How is it even possible to wait forever? The concept that something could have always existed is a bogus one. I would have thought better of you, Hugh, to resort to a ludicrous statement like that to justify your beliefs.

"It's funny to me how some scoff at this, yet believe in an ever-existing physical universe with no problem. " - Hugh
"People who don't want their beliefs laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs" - Unknown
Last time I checked, nobody ever said the Universe is everlasting.

I don't believe it's possible for the universe to have popped into existence out of 'absolute nothingness'"


It's not hard. Just imagine a place with no space or time or laws of physics, how about, before the Universe was created. Or here's another one:
Just because science can't explain it yet doesn't mean you should turn to the nearest supernatural claim and give up trying to find the answer?

"First, we have a free will, which we can use to hurt others if we so choose. We can also use that free will to help others, if we so choose."


Wow, good point. So why do we have free will again? Oh yeah, because God decided it would be a good thing. Apparently the all-powerful God can't make us be happy and have no free will at the same time; it's one or the other.

"We can, in fact, all get together and collectively choose to not hurt each other and live together in peace and harmony"


Odd how I've never seen an Atheist fly a plane into a building, yet Hitler liked to kill a lot of Jews when he was alive...

"should God be blamed?"

I don't know. He did create everything and set everything up knowing that every act of evil that has happened would happen and did absolutely nothing to stop it or prevent when he had the chance. Hell, he still has the chance, he's God remember?

"If I hurt someone, why should that person blame God instead of me? It was my fault, not God's. "

If you hurt someone, it's because you have a violent nature, with a special thanks to God. I wonder if William Golding is an Atheist?


"Another point to realize is that we can only fully appreciate the good, when we know that the potential to do bad is available to us. I can choose to hurt my neighbour, but if I choose to be good to him instead, then the value of that good choice can be fully realized."


'Amen' to that, brother.

"If God created a world in which we were only capable of doing good things, then where would the value be in that?"


So God doesn't have the ability to make us appreciate the value of good things without giving us bad things too? That doesn't seem all powerful to me.

"One can look at a life lived by someone like Mother Theresa, and really appreciate the value of her kindness and love."



Don't make me laugh! No seriously, I'm drinking hot tea.
Mother Theresa was obsessed with death and the suffering of dying people. Not to mention she made a fortune off of several different African nations that she was supposedly "helping". Penn & Teller did a show on this, it was pretty good.

"The freedom to choose to do good instead of bad. That's the beauty of our life here, to be choosers of love and kindness. To help instead of hurt."


I still don't see how choosing to do good instead of bad has anything to do with God, but keep preachin' brother!

"What happens after we die is a mystery, but I believe that we will be judged on how we chose to live our life."


So you don't know what's going to happen, but you think we're going to be judged. Perfect sense.

"That's what I like to focus on, is how I'm doing in my own pursuit of doing good and helping others. Using my free will for the good."


So you wouldn't be a good person if you didn't think you were going to be judged? How does that make you a good person? Or the inverse, if someone doesn't believe they will be judged and still does good things, doesn't that make them a really good person?
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Postby Hugh » Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:58 am

Bgavran3, you may be correct in your reasoning, it is a possibility that we don't have a free will, but I believe we do.

I also believe that there is good and bad, and that I should choose to do good. Most religions have some sort of common golden rule along the lines of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and that seems like a logical way for me to choose to live.

For myself, the problem I've found with choosing to believe that I don't have a free will is that my life then becomes meaningless. If I have no control over what I'm going to do, then why would I want to do anything at all? Who wants to live like a robot? The joy for me in life is in knowing that I can choose to do anything I want - within the bounds of the physical laws existing - and that I can choose to help others, and feel happiness, and love. That makes life worth living for me, and a wonderful gift to enjoy and be grateful for.

Nick, I spent 4 pages discussing the "something cannot come from nothing on its own" with you here http://tetraspace.alkaline.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=523. That was back when you were "irockyou".

On page 4 you'll see where I said "You know irockyou, I wish you could understand what I am saying but after 4 pages now, I don't think you will and I am getting a little tired explaining it. Plus, when I try a different way you tell me I keep repeating myself so you know what, you go ahead and believe whatever you'd like. It's not my desire or job to convert you to my way of thinking. This is a forum to freely express ideas and have fun. Let's leave it at that on this topic between us shall we?" :)

Problem is Nick, whatever I say, you'll just twist everything around and put me down for it. You're free to have your own beliefs about things. Live your life how you want to live yours, you're free to do so. Cheers.
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Postby bgavran3 » Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:30 pm

Hugh wrote:Bgavran3, you may be correct in your reasoning, it is a possibility that we don't have a free will, but I believe we do.

I also believe that there is good and bad, and that I should choose to do good. Most religions have some sort of common golden rule along the lines of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and that seems like a logical way for me to choose to live.

For myself, the problem I've found with choosing to believe that I don't have a free will is that my life then becomes meaningless. If I have no control over what I'm going to do, then why would I want to do anything at all? Who wants to live like a robot? The joy for me in life is in knowing that I can choose to do anything I want - within the bounds of the physical laws existing - and that I can choose to help others, and feel happiness, and love. That makes life worth living for me, and a wonderful gift to enjoy and be grateful for.

Nick, I spent 4 pages discussing the "something cannot come from nothing on its own" with you here http://tetraspace.alkaline.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=523. That was back when you were "irockyou".

That is what was bothering me too, that we have no choice. Everything you did, everything you're doing right now and everything you will do can be predicted. I got into thinking few days ago that humans will maybe make a program in the future (40-50 years) that'll be able to calculate the future (but not 100% correctly, I'd say 20%) like I posted in my post up there^^ and then people will be able to see who really did kill someone, who did this and that, are we alone in the universe... it'll be really amazing.

About the topic of the starting of everything you posted, I have my own theory thats connected to the theory of relativity. As we know, if you get close to the speed of light, everything will seem like it slowed down and if you actually reach the speed of light, everything will seem like it stopped and if you exceed it, "you'll go back in time". If that theory is correct, and so far I have no reasons to think otherwise, in the future, when someone first "time travels" and when we discover how the life on earth actually started (did we already discover this? I'm not really sure, sorry if I'm wrong) we'll just "go back in time" and put there something that made the life on earth start. So everything will loop forever, all out lives, everything that happened, in one word: Everything.
Thats just my theory, if you think I'm wrong please say why
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Postby Hugh » Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:49 pm

bgavran3 wrote:That is what was bothering me too, that we have no choice. Everything you did, everything you're doing right now and everything you will do can be predicted. I got into thinking few days ago that humans will maybe make a program in the future (40-50 years) that'll be able to calculate the future (but not 100% correctly, I'd say 20%) like I posted in my post up there^^ and then people will be able to see who really did kill someone, who did this and that, are we alone in the universe... it'll be really amazing.


I've had similar thoughts too. For example, if you put compound A and compound B together, a certain chemical reaction will take place, there's no "choice" that it has. Or if you let go of a rock from a height, it will fall down due to gravity, there is no choice involved. Things that aren't "alive" clearly follow certain physical laws.

The difference is that humans seem to have a choice of what to do. If we weren't humans and were only observing them, it may be unclear if they just follow physical laws or not. This is why some humans think that animals and other life forms do not make choices. (I personally think that they can make choices.)

As humans, we can clearly make a choice such as to stay in bed all day long, or get up and do something.

Here's what I think, that we have a free will, but are limited in our choices by the physical laws of the universe. If there would be some sort of "prediction" computer invented in the future, it would be able to calculate all the available possible choices we have within the limits of all the physical laws available, but it wouldn't know which actual choices from those that we would choose to make.

bgavran3 wrote:About the topic of the starting of everything you posted, I have my own theory thats connected to the theory of relativity. As we know, if you get close to the speed of light, everything will seem like it slowed down and if you actually reach the speed of light, everything will seem like it stopped and if you exceed it, "you'll go back in time". If that theory is correct, and so far I have no reasons to think otherwise, in the future, when someone first "time travels" and when we discover how the life on earth actually started (did we already discover this? I'm not really sure, sorry if I'm wrong) we'll just "go back in time" and put there something that made the life on earth start. So everything will loop forever, all out lives, everything that happened, in one word: Everything.
Thats just my theory, if you think I'm wrong please say why


There are some fascinating time travel possibilities, and what you mention is possible.

You could post it in the Time Dimensions section of the forum: http://tetraspace.alkaline.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=4, so that way we keep the discussions of Religion and Time in different sections. :)
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Postby Nick » Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:04 pm

Hugh wrote:Nick, I spent 4 pages discussing the "something cannot come from nothing on its own" with you here http://tetraspace.alkaline.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=523. That was back when you were "irockyou".

On page 4 you'll see where I said "You know irockyou, I wish you could understand what I am saying but after 4 pages now, I don't think you will and I am getting a little tired explaining it. Plus, when I try a different way you tell me I keep repeating myself so you know what, you go ahead and believe whatever you'd like. It's not my desire or job to convert you to my way of thinking. This is a forum to freely express ideas and have fun. Let's leave it at that on this topic between us shall we?" :)

Problem is Nick, whatever I say, you'll just twist everything around and put me down for it. You're free to have your own beliefs about things. Live your life how you want to live yours, you're free to do so. Cheers.


To be honest, I don't remember anything about that thread or what I said in it. But I do remember getting frustrated with you, too. Another thing I don't remember is pretending that everything you said had no effect on me, insulting you, then pretending I'm the bigger man.

At no point in the above post did I ever twist your words around on you. If you can't think of a response, don't say "I'm done talking to you", just admit that you can't think of a response. Or at least say that you can think of one but you're too lazy to type it (if it's the truth), because as you say we're here to express ideas. If you have a rebuttal I want you to type it; the more I know and the more perspectives I hear from makes me a more knowledgeable and open minded person.

Yes, I use sarcasm in my posts, but believe me when I say that I mean all due respect to you. I spent a while on that post and it would be nice if you at least read it.
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Postby Hugh » Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:14 pm

Nick wrote:To be honest, I don't remember anything about that thread or what I said in it. But I do remember getting frustrated with you, too. Another thing I don't remember is pretending that everything you said had no effect on me, insulting you, then pretending I'm the bigger man.

At no point in the above post did I ever twist your words around on you. If you can't think of a response, don't say "I'm done talking to you", just admit that you can't think of a response. Or at least say that you can think of one but you're too lazy to type it (if it's the truth), because as you say we're here to express ideas. If you have a rebuttal I want you to type it; the more I know and the more perspectives I hear from makes me a more knowledgeable and open minded person.

Yes, I use sarcasm in my posts, but believe me when I say that I mean all due respect to you. I spent a while on that post and it would be nice if you at least read it.


I did. Your post just confirms what I said previously. Sorry Nick.
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Postby Nick » Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:44 am

Hugh wrote:I did. Your post just confirms what I said previously. Sorry Nick.


Since you're the only religious person on this forum, and you refuse to talk to me, I guess I'm done. See ya on the other forums.
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Re: My opinion about god's existence

Postby papernuke » Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:44 am

Im atheist so *teehee*.
before, when i was smaller, i used to beleive in one "creator" god, the same one described in the first post.
and i thought the same.
why, if he is so powerful and can do everything, is so much bad stuff happening in the world? Why are people dying because of the things he created? humans?

Now, i am an atheist because of one main reason, because the science i beleive in wouldnt exsist if there was one supreme god.
also, however, because of the multitude of gods and religions
if in one religion, there is one god (e.g. christianity), then, in another religion there are many gods (e.g. shinto
[japanese religion] ) , then which is the true one?
the shinto beleivers would obviously beleive in their own religion, thinking that there are gods in everything, and the christians would beleive threre was one god - Jesus .
that itself gives the evidence that religion is just something that is made up. created by the minds of desperate people looking for an answer to life.

im not religion-ist, im just saying my veiws of religion. sorry the post was a bit offencive, if you mind.
"Civilization is a race between education and catastrophe."
-H.G. Wells
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Re: My opinion about god's existence

Postby zero » Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:35 am

Hugh wrote:Someone might say, well then who created God? I would say that God has always existed, so there is no need for him to have been created. It's funny to me how some scoff at this, yet believe in an ever-existing physical universe with no problem.

Scoffing is the easy way out. How about thinking it through? If something has to be here all along, then it might as well be something we actually have evidence for. There doesn't seem to be any good reason to "explain" the universe with something else that merely pushes the question of ultimate origins back a level, and without any evidence that this god (of any variety) is more than just a wild guess or a fanciful bit of make believe.

The way I see it is that the universe was here upon my arrival and will still be here at my departure. We may speculate much, and have fun doing it, but anyone who is intellectually honest will concede that we have very little understanding, really, of what extraordinary boundary conditions apply to unusual situations that lie far, far outside our limited experience and knowledge. Gods come from a time long ago when they were invented and/or dreamed up by people with an even more primitive grasp of the world and our place in it than we have today -- knowing as we do that our planet is but one of many orbiting the sun, and the sun but one among billions in a galaxy that itself is one of billions in the observable universe. This is a long cry from heaven above and hell below, a common cosmology among our ancestors.

When you think about it, it's not a big mystery who created the gods. We did. And in my opinion all the gods are created equal.
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Re: My opinion about god's existence

Postby Why? How? » Thu May 29, 2008 5:49 pm

I would like to ask a question here.. What do we have to loose anyway? If you do believe in God and actually follow his teachings then you're making the world a better place. If it turns out in the end that GOd doesn't exsist then what did you loose? You just made some peoples' earthly lives more comfortable.
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Re: My opinion about god's existence

Postby zero » Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:34 pm

Why? How? wrote: What do we have to loose anyway? If you do believe in God and actually follow his teachings then you're making the world a better place.

What you have to "loose?"

Loosing the chaos of conflicting subjective superstitions onto the world with the dogmatic certainty of blind faith is not only arrogant, but stupid. Because just saying -- or even sincerely believing with all your heart -- that you are "actually" following the teachings of the one true god (of which there are endless contradictory versions) does NOT make it true. Otherwise every god that every person has ever believed in would be real, wouldn't they? What a mess of nonsense that would be!

Think. What are some of the results of actually following "his teachings?" What are people capable of believing? That they should kill witches? Make war against infidels? Stone their children to death because they follow a different religion? Keep different sets of cookware for meat and dairy products? Stick their butts in the air five times a day? Waste time trying to convince people that their favorite gods are the real "one, true" god?


If it turns out in the end that GOd doesn't exsist then what did you loose? You just made some peoples' earthly lives more comfortable.

You have nothing to lose besides your own intellectual honesty (when you make excuses for believing in fairy tales for no good reason), and of course the time you could have spent doing worthwhile things without putting them all in the context of a big ghost in the sky telling you to do them.

Here's my question. What do you lose by just doing what's right without pretending that you cannot do it without a magical superdude whispering all the answers in your ear?

Make believe is not required to make people more comfortable.
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Re: My opinion about god's existence

Postby Lumencha » Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:22 pm

We are all God. There is no separation at the level of primary reality. Since God is everything and all of us He suffers and enjoys everything. The idea that He is above us and allows bad things to happen is looking at the issue from a limited perspective. We are here in 3D bodies because we all made the choice at some point to experience "separation" from Oneness or God Consciousness. The pain anyone feels here on planet Earth is the result of our OWN decisions.

Why is this allowed to happen? So we can experience the consequences of what separation means and learn from this.
Also free will is important.

So here is my theory of what might have happened. In the beginning there was ONE Consciousness or GOD. Sparks of this ONE then individualized into GODs which were self aware but STILL aware of their oneness with the WHOLE GOD.

Then one or more of these Gods made the choice to be separate and claimed themselves to be powerful by themselves.
The story of Lucifer could apply here. Once the choice was made the whole 3D dimension was created to allow the now "fallen" souls to have a place to experience a separate existence "away" from God.

The truth is though that this secondary level is NOT primary. It is still supported and manifested by the ONE GOD but bad things can happen here as a result of free will and chioce.

This is why such practices as Yoga and meditation exist. Yoga means union and is the method that masters in India use to regain the original awareness of Unity and Self realization that they forgot when they descended into 3D reality.
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Re: My opinion about god's existence

Postby zero » Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:54 am

Lumencha wrote:We are all God.

Then we are an awfully confused and befuddled deity, aren't we?
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