Why be an Atheist, Agnostic, or Christian/Religious person?

Discussions about the possibility of consciousness, free will, spirits, deities, religions and so on, and how these might interact with time travel, the Big Bang, many worlds and so on.

Which of these fits you best?

Christian
4
15%
Different Religion
0
No votes
Weak Atheist
5
19%
Strong Atheist
13
50%
Agnostic
3
12%
Deciding/Dont Know
1
4%
 
Total votes : 26

Why be an Atheist, Agnostic, or Christian/Religious person?

Postby gerren » Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:47 pm

I am posting this so that i can see why many people come to the decisions that they do concerning religion or just God. Why do it? Have you looked around 360 degrees? Have you investigated the evidence, rebuttals you are arguing to a great extent??
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Postby papernuke » Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:10 pm

im an atheist except i got to church. i only go because my best friend goes there and my mom tells me to. except i dont beleive in it.
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Postby gerren » Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:20 pm

Can you tell me why exactly you are an atheist? Do you know what the difference is between a strong and weak atheist is?
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Postby papernuke » Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:39 pm

no, but an atheist is a person who has no religeon and im an atheist becasue i dont really like religeons
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Postby gerren » Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:42 pm

why dont you like religion??? At one point in my life i thought religion was outdated, pointless, and just a sheet to cloak fear of the "afterlife", but i was enlightened by many other things to come to the decision that it wasnt, but it is rather something that we all need and can POSSIBLY be hopeless without. Soooooo, what do you think?
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Postby Nick » Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:44 am

I put strong athiest, but I'm not sure what the difference is (positive or negative connotation?). I, personally, greatly dislike religion, maybe to the point of hatred. You ask, why? Why could something so harmless, that brings hope to people, be hated?

The Crusades. The Spanish Inquisition. The Salem Witch Trials. Hitler. September 11.
"God is perhaps one of the most unpleasant characters in all fiction." -Richard Dawkins.

"God" urges people on to murder, steal, pillage, rape, and commit acts of genocide. Even in the Bible, God tells his soldiers (why does God need soldiers?) to kill all the men, older women and children, but keep the women to rape for yourselves; if there aren't enough, hide by the roadside and kidnap any women you find that might please you(Judges 21:10-24 NLT). What kind of God would tell people to do such horrible acts, especially the God that tells us "thou shallt not kill"? I wonder; if the soldiers said no, would they go to hell for disobeying God, or go to heaven for being noble?
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Postby gerren » Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:11 am

The Crusades. The Spanish Inquisition. The Salem Witch Trials. Hitler. September 11.


All of these were caused by humans who actually went against christian values (values set by God). Did God tell the people to committed these horrible crimes to commit them?? No. He did not. These are people who disobeyed God thinking that they were doing the correct thing. God did not tell these people to do that. They themselves thought it was the correct thing to do.

And also, nice play on words with Judges book in the bible. HOW CAN YOU SIT UP AND LIE ABOUT WHAT GOD HAS SAID AND NOT SAID??? God never told anyone to murder, steal, pillage, rape, and commit acts of genocide! I have the bible right beside me, and the acts are in the bible, but guess what?! GOD did NOT tell them to do that. A CONGREGATION of ISRAELITES (which are mankind and NOT GOD) told their soldiers to commit those acts!

In the book of Judges 21:10-24 NLT, the bible says "And the congregation sent thither twelve thousand men of the valiantest, and commanded them, saying, Go and smite the inhabitants of Ja'besh-gil-e-ad to the assembly."
Obviously a CONGREGATION sent the army to commit those horrible acts, and not GOD. Did you think that i would believe that just because you had the place in the bible where this passage is??? No.

p.s.
Im sorry that i became irate and hysterical and I meant no disrespect towards you. I now realize that obviously someone else told you this :lol:
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Postby PWrong » Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:08 am

A strong atheist believes there is no God. A weak atheist just doesn't believe there is. Weak atheists include babies, animals, and rocks. I used to say I was a weak atheist, but now I'm not sure it's possible to stay a weak atheist after being introduced to the idea of God.
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Postby houserichichi » Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:26 am

A strong atheist says "gods don't exist" or "this/that particular god doesn't exist". A weak atheist says "I dont' believe gods exist" or "I don't believe that this/that particular god exists". One makes the assertion the other puts forth a belief.

I was actually talking to my mom about this the other day. She asked me what my religious beliefs were and I spurted off, "there is no god, there never was a god, and there never will be a god." Her follow-up was, "well, how do you know?" to which I replied, "I don't know, per se, I believe. Gods are supernatural and, thus, don't fit into the category of things that can be (dis)proved by any conventional means; not philosophically, argumentatively, nor factually. Thus, to believe in a god is no more or less asinine than believing in psychics, fairies, or Santa. So, since gods aren't required (as far as I understand things) for the world to work I just split them out of the equation and crumple their chapter into the dustbin."

I then smiled and had a cup of cocoa. With little marshmallows. It's cold here, you see.
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Postby gerren » Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:39 am

Yes, that is very true indeed, but i guess as far as His existance being (dis)proved does not fall into your category of life itself. You seem to be a person who relies on very general but valid statements to prove his idea and leaves it at that and goes on with their life. I really cannot have too much of a response to that type of attitude, can I? It seems you are leaving the idea of His existence at a point where it cannot possibly be explained to make the idea itself go backwards nor forwards. Do I have this correct?
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Postby houserichichi » Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:18 am

I blame it on the mathematics background...they forced me to think abstractly.

I think that any serious scientist must entertain the idea of a god if only for a fleeting second. Strictly denouncing ones existence goes completely against the scientific method of theory/evidence and worse still is proposing proof without logic. On the other hand, however, I feel that any human being has the option to believe or not believe something that tends away from their personal philsophical tendencies and, that being said, it allows even a scientists the freedom to explicitly forbid a deity based solely on the fact that one wouldn't fit into a physical interpretation of the universe to begin with as all deities are supernatural.

That's where I stand. My universe is 100% natural and, as such, no deities can inhabit it nor can they exist beyond it. Since we've no clue what's beyond our universe I am free to build a philosophy of my own liking and am able to denounce a god by that poorly worded logic.

And now back to my hot chocolate!
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Postby Nick » Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:56 pm

I did not think that you would simply believe me, I expected you to look it up. You are correct, however, that someone I know did tell me this. I should have looked it up before posting it, and I apologize.

However, another point comes from this passage; God does nothing to stop these men. He simply lets them do it. In the Bible, there are lots of times when people rape and murder, sometimes God approves, other times God does nothing. I'll provide quotes later if you want, right now I'm tired :) .

As for Sept. 11, Crusades, etc., you will find that the Bible supports these things. In California, America, a Christian murdered a doctor on the street outside his abortion clinic. In the courtroom, he quoted parts of the Bible, that told him it was OK to do murder him (If he was in the south, he probably would've gotten away with it).
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Postby houserichichi » Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:46 pm

What about 11 September does the bible support? Same goes for the Crusades? Simply the spread of Christian ideals? If that's the case (in the general sense) then one would imagine that there would be a more effective, less intrusive method, for instance the missionairies that travel to poor countries and indoctrinate the uneducated locals. At any rate, the Christian faith permeates a great number of human ideals but at the same time a great number of those are "in it" simply out of fear of the afterlife.

Personal taste, I don't care for organized religions to begin with (even though I grew up Catholic, went to Catholic school, and have a good portion of my family as devout believers) nor do I care for the more general version of spirituality which just doesn't fit into my scientifically-oriented worldviews.

To each their own, right? Your god's truth is not my truth and your god's word is not my word. In fact your god doesn't exist in my eyes - same applies to any other person of any other faith - this is the joy of being human. For me, it's the joy of being secular.

irockyou wrote:If he was in the south, he probably would've gotten away with it


I certainly hope that's wrong. That poor country is in shambles if it's true.
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Postby gerren » Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:56 pm

you will find that the Bible supports these things


Also, as i have said before, the bible was written by man, and not God (as most of these forums deal with God himself rather than other superficial figures in biblical history). The bible is also a historical document detailing events that occurred in Hebrew/Israelite history and has passages that probably wont have anything to do with God. I suspect these passages may have been parts in the bible where more respected people of the Israelite tribes have made decisions supporting murder/genocide/crusades.

You must also remember that some people interpret the bible differently than the majority of others. The guy who killed a doctor was probably one of those people or was just trying to get off with an excuse. Also, if you ask me, I think that our government crashed the planes into the two towers. There is overwhelming evidence that suggests this (trust me, i would know and if you want to ask me any questions about that topic feel free to ask :) )
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Postby gerren » Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:12 pm

Also, you are correct when it comes to the fear of the afterlife subject. The thing about that is that the majority of people either dont have enough time to look around for any other answers or are so devout believers that the afterlife doesnt cross their mind without the thought of heaven too.
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Postby houserichichi » Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:45 am

gerren wrote:the majority of people either dont have enough time to look around for any other answers or are so devout believers that the afterlife doesnt cross their mind without the thought of heaven too.


The last bit is a very good point. I hadn't considered that...food for thought, gerren.
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Postby gerren » Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:48 am

thanks for the comment. a lot.
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Postby gerren » Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:58 am

Weak atheists include babies, animals, and rocks

lol Very funny!
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Postby gerren » Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:20 am

houserichichi wrote:
irockyou wrote:If he was in the south, he probably would've gotten away with it


I certainly hope that's wrong. That poor country is in shambles if it's true.


Yes, our country is in shambles and will fall just as the Romans did.
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Faith is personal, and yet to an interested party shared

Postby Russ1953 » Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:49 pm

There is comfort in times of need from company, good, hugs, and strength. I love those T-cells, stored with faith to become the missing link to whatever damaged was done to afflick me or you. I am happy we can see each other in most the stages of light available in a day. I am comforted with those who see this experience as awesome. I am curious when my comfort is bored and seeks to grow. If I do not seek, I am not hungry. When I am hungry, I am glad someones planning worked so that we all may eat and have variety. I hope my contributions mean as much as I appreciate. Is this religious? It's definately personal to those those of a like mind.
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Postby gerren » Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:03 am

ummm....ok....
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Postby jadaco » Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:04 am

First off, I'll apologize for posting in an old thread (apparently an old category even). But the topic's relevant to my interests, so I'm gonna say my piece.

I think God created something to tell him no. Why did he create choice? Some would probably prefer the more altruistic approach that he created something that can tell him no, just to see if it'll say yes on its own. The important point though is that in order to truly create choice, God or Not, God has to create, or allow the existence of (however you want to look at it), the Not.

I can't help but think if God is such a smart gu-- er, whatever he/she/it is, then why would he create the ability to choose if not to see and comprehend the opposite choice (because he already knows himself so well). Maybe even to see the potential of a creation that has to make its own independent decisions about morality?

What category does that fall under?
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Postby Nick » Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:01 pm

jadaco wrote:What category does that fall under?


Doesn't really make much sense does it? The way your thinking, however, falls under the category of "Theology". In other words, "We know God exists, so how can we explain this obvious fact without contradicting ourselves or the Universe we live in?"

A lot of Christians say that God created free will because he didn't want robots running around; that "people-bots" can never be happy because they don't have free will. This doesn't make sense because it implies that the all-powerful God couldn't make people who are happy without free will. And when you consider the fact that God is all-knowing, that he knows the past, present and future, you start to wonder if every decision you have ever made and will ever make is really your decision, or if it is set in stone (fate), and that you have no free will at all.

As far as I see it, there are too many inconsistencies with the traits given to God. It is impossible for any being to be all-powerful, all-loving and all-knowing at the same time in the Universe we live in.
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Postby jadaco » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:57 pm

Cool. I agree in a lot of ways. I was having a similar conversation about this (free will relating to happiness, and conflicts with omniscience) a couple nights ago.

First off, let me address this, "We know God exists, so how can we explain this obvious fact without contradicting ourselves or the Universe we live in?" Close, but this quote gives a more accurate summary:

"In my most extreme fluctuations I have never been an Atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God. I think that generally (and more and more as I grow older), but not always, that an Agnostic would be the more correct description of my state of mind."
- Charles Darwin

That said, my view is a little less specific to God, lying in the more general "intelligent design" argument. I don't think the view has to try to avoid contradicting ourselves or the Universe, considering the complexity of each serve as the raw evidence in that view. Darwin went on to bring up some interesting conflicts with intelligent design that I'd love to talk about, but I don't want to sidetrack too far from the original point, and I somewhat address those potential conflicts below.

I think the issue lies in people trying to attribute God with everything (or everything they want him to be). Problem is, how could anything be everything at once without conflicting with itself in some ways? Also, does "all-knowing" mean he knows everything that's going to happen, or just that he knows everything that can happen (which still has some limits)? None of this is new, but I don't think it often gets the weight it deserves in people's minds before they move onto other concepts. Granted, this is where you venture into areas that could be considered beyond our intellect. Still, I roll my eyes at the classic, "our imperfect minds can't fully understand God" response when used as a cop out.

Can God comprehend existence without God? Maybe that's the whole point. People get caught up in righteousness and hell fire, but could it just be the difference between presence and absence? If God made humans "in his image," is that possibly the point of free will? Could that image be more about choice and self-awareness than physical appearance or some subjective idea of purity?

I'm jumping around, but the problem I see with people often saying that God could have created lots of happy people with free will is that it assumes God created people just to be happy. That sometimes gets, "well if not then God's an ass hole," and hey, maybe that's the case. I just can't help but think that an attempt at combining free will and happiness still results in telling people what happiness is, which conflicts with true free will. People seem to have the capacity to be as good or bad, happy or otherwise, as they want to be. And if there's some higher intellect behind it, is it necessarily just some sick experiment, or as simple as an issue of "happy or not"?

If there's a God, is it possible to be happy entirely without him? Is it possible that he wants to know that too? There are some notions going on from this relating to a dimensional hierarchy, but I've blathered on long enough for one post.
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Re: Why be an Atheist, Agnostic, or Christian/Religious pers

Postby zero » Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:19 am

gerren wrote:I am posting this so that i can see why many people come to the decisions that they do concerning religion or just God. Why do it? Have you looked around 360 degrees? Have you investigated the evidence, rebuttals you are arguing to a great extent??

I just don't see any way to distinguish any god from myth, metaphor and make believe. Without being able to make that distinction, I am unable to believe in a god that exists outside human imagination.

As for the categories offered, I'm not sure I fit any of them exclusively. Definitely I'm an atheist, because I do not have a belief in the independent existence of god(s).

Agnosticism deals with a logically different question (an epistemological one) -- so there can be agnostic theists who believe in a god without claiming to have any positive knowledge of its existence, believing solely on faith; and agnostic atheists who are agnostic because they don't think it's possible to know whether or not there's a god, and atheist because they do not actually have a belief in one.

Those who use "strong atheist" and "weak atheist" as classifications may find that I fall under the former heading with respect to certain proposed gods, and fall under the latter heading with respect to other proposed gods. While it may be fun to create narrower categories to help classify atheists -- since we are every bit as diverse as theists in our approaches to life, experiences, habits, ideas and practices -- I just don't see a great value in such a classification scheme. It's far easier for me, if I want to know what someone thinks, simply to ask them. This is especially true with atheists, since atheism has no creed or common philosophy by which atheists may be readily identified. We just don't happen to share a belief (an unwarranted belief, I'd say) in gods. That's all. Beyond that, it all depends.
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Re: Why be an Atheist, Agnostic, or Christian/Religious pers

Postby jadaco » Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:39 pm

Yeah, I'm with you on strong and weak atheism. At the same time, and for the same reasons from my perspective, the "agnostic atheist" or "agnostic theist" labels don't seem consistent with my understanding of agnosticism. Atheism and theism directly debate the existence of a divine origin/presence, while agnosticism (again, from my understanding) is more of a true neutral view that says definitively, "we can't know".

I'd also go as far as to say that someone who's simply undecided (myself included) can't exactly claim true agnosticism because it's a decision. The decision being that a decision can't be made due to whatever reason (lack of facts, intellect, comprehension), not that a decision is still pending due diligence. I'm not closed to the idea of agnosticism being more all-encompassing of indecision, but I think a distinction is important.

zero wrote:I do not have a belief in the independent existence of god(s).


I'm not sure I take your meaning when you say "the independent existence of god(s)". Are you willing to clarify a little?
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Postby zero » Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:45 pm

Sorry about the delay.

Clarification: I mean independent of human imagination. I have no trouble accepting that each and every god -- all of the gods -- exist in some sense in the minds of those who dream them up, much like Harry Potter exists in the same sense as a fictional character that can still engage a reader's interest and emotions.
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Postby Apeironian » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:12 pm

Just waiting for someone to prove that he (I ain't capitalizing that pronoun!) exists. All anyone seems to be able to do is point to a book. You know what? I believe in Peter Pan.
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Re: Why be an Atheist, Agnostic, or Christian/Religious person?

Postby papernuke » Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:34 am

You do? i dont really get where he lives. does he just live among the stars in the sky?
because in the children's animated movies, the children and him just fly into this one bright star and bam!
they're in whatever wonderland that inclues cpt hook and those pirates and guys.
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Re: Why be an Atheist, Agnostic, or Christian/Religious person?

Postby jadaco » Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:20 pm

My only issue with the "prove he exists" argument is, um, prove he doesn't? I'm not gonna be the one to say one way or the other in that context because I think it's impossible to say who's right. I don't think the existence of some higher order sentience is without logical merit, and to me the concept of one god specifically makes more sense than multiple gods when you're considering he/she/it an infinite being. I favor the concept of sentience and higher order originating from a source capable of that, instead of the concept of everything (especially sentience) originating from an inanimate source. Though I can still consider strong concepts to the contrary.

Grammatically speaking, I don't abnormally capitalize pronouns, and for me the difference is "God" or "a god," just like "Dad" or "my dad." I'm always annoyed by the god/God debate because if you approach it grammatically, almost everyone is wrong. Most pick exclusively god or God for all uses, as if to make a religious or anti-religious statement.

But most important of all, what's in or near or within the direction of the brightest star? Is there a darkest/dimmest star where another place exists, Everland, where a sort of Bizzaro bad Peter Pan and good Captain Hook battle it out, but nobody can fly and in its stage productions Peter Pan is actually played by a man (for once)?
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