Christian God, Impossible? FTW!

Discussions about the possibility of consciousness, free will, spirits, deities, religions and so on, and how these might interact with time travel, the Big Bang, many worlds and so on.

Are you Christian or Athiest?

Christian
9
28%
Athiest
16
50%
Agnostic
1
3%
Don't Care.
6
19%
 
Total votes : 32

Postby Nick » Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:28 am

We wouldn't prefer not being robots if we were robots. If we were robots, we would have no preferences at all, everything would be hardwired. If God were truely compassionate and loving, he wouldn't have created a hell to begin with; and, assuming he did anyway, he wouldn't want us to go there. You seem to value freewill as God's way of showing his love; I see it as quite the opposite. Why would a benevolent God create a hell for not believing in him, then make it possible for us to not believe in him? Think about what hell is!
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Postby houserichichi » Sat Oct 28, 2006 5:12 pm

gerren wrote:viruses can reproduce by connecting to cells and going through phases such as attatchment, penetration, biosynthesis, maturation and release.


Viruses are very able to reproduce, I should have been more exact in my wording. They cannot reproduce without the aid of an exterior body (cell) to latch on to. Viruses cannot use their genetic material by themselves which differentiates them from "living" organisms. This is, of course, up for debate, but the vast majority of virologists and biologists are on the side of viruses being nonliving. Essentially they're just DNA with a protein coating. The very definition of virus is a nonliving intracellular parasite. At any rate, it's semantics.
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Postby gerren » Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:46 am

Why would a benevolent God create a hell

God did not make hell, I'm pretty sure Satan or Lucifer did (I'll have to look that up to be exact on who did.)


If God were truely compassionate and loving, he wouldn't have created a hell to begin with; and, assuming he did anyway, he wouldn't want us to go there


You are exactly correct. I dont know what your point is, but you ARE agreeing with me. God does not want us to go to hell, but he still gives us free will to decide on if we want to or if we dont want to. It is completely up to us!
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Postby PWrong » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:17 am

God did not make hell, I'm pretty sure Satan or Lucifer did (I'll have to look that up to be exact on who did.)

You'd think that would be pretty basic knowledge. I bet there's contradictions in the literature about this.

It is completely up to us!

No it's not. No human is able to make an informed decision on the matter, because we don't know that hell exists. It's not a matter of choosing to go to hell or not, it's about choosing whether we believe in hell. If God existed and wanted us to choose, he would show us the options directly.
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Postby gerren » Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:32 am

No, you choose not to believe that hell exists (there is a difference between not knowing something and choosing not to believe something). Also, with the literature thing, it also depends on who writes the literature. There is only one literature that is the source of information on hell and that is the bible (although there is this book im reading called "a divine revelation of hell by Mary K. Baxter (1984)" although im kinda skeptical about it).
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Postby Nick » Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:45 am

Yeah, I choose not to believe in it, so I'm using free will, which is what God gave us. You say he gave us free will to choose whether or not to believe in hell; well, I'm using my free will and my logic, which he gave me, to come with the conclusion that hell doesn't exist. IF your God does exist, surely such a benevolent God will still allow me to heaven, because I used what He gave me; even if I used it in a way he didn't originally intend.
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Postby gerren » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:06 am

Using free will to decide if you want to go to heaven or hell is only a few of the many things you can do with free will, obviously (i was only talking about that because that was the subject).

There is a famous quote by Jesus, and he said (something to this effect, as this quote may not be as accurate as i want it to) "seek and you will find." Obviously God wouldnt let you into heaven if basically everything you said about him contradicted his existence, correct?
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Postby gerren » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:07 am

"God will still allow me to heaven, because I used what He gave me"

Do you think that Hitler used what God gave him? Yes. Do you think he will get/got into heaven because he used what God gave him? No.
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Postby PWrong » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:22 am

Here's an exercise for you.

There are 100 doors in front of you. Each one says "behind this door is a free car. All the other doors lead to a firey death."

1. What information do you know about what is behind the doors?

2. How much "free will" do you have in this situation?

3. If you pick a door and you die, did you "choose" to die?

4. What's the best action?
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Postby gerren » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:34 am

There are 100 doors in front of you. Each one says "behind this door is a free car. All the other doors lead to a firey death."


Your initial statement is flawed. Read it again. If each one says that behind the door is a free car, then how can the "other doors" lead to a firey death?
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Postby PWrong » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:53 am

There's no flaw. Read it again, and think about it. Put an emphasis on the word "says"
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Postby gerren » Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:00 am

So are you saying that the door has a sign or such and it has that on it, and behind each door there is a fiery death? Still, if each says that there is a car behind the door than there cannot be any "other" doors. Please Clarify :)
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Postby PWrong » Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:09 am

Sigh... I didn't tell you anything about what's behind the door. All I said is what's on the sign in front of each door. Every sign says the same thing. As you've noticed, the signs contradict each other. So what do you know about what's behind the doors?

Hint: it's a trick question.
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Postby gerren » Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:15 am

1. What information do you know about what is behind the doors?
Ummm...i know that the door is obviously lying.
2. How much "free will" do you have in this situation?
do you really have to go through a door?
3. If you pick a door and you die, did you "choose" to die?
do you really have to got through the door?
4. What's the best action?
Dont go through any of them.


I think i get at what you are getting at, and its a very complicated matter for a person trying to choose his ideals/faith, but as i have said, what if some doors have more information on them than some others? you really cant equate all religions/belief systems equally with each other, can you??[/b]
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Postby PWrong » Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:31 am

I'm glad you see my point. :D All you know is that at least 99 doors are lying, but you have no information about what's actually behind the doors. Naively, one might assume that exactly one of the doors is telling the truth, so there is one car and 99 fires. But it's also possible that all the doors are lying, so there could be 100 cars or 100 fires. Or all the doors could be empty.

Similarly, it could be that God sends everyone to Hell, or everyone to Heaven, or just doesn't exist.

what if some doors have more information on them than some others? you really cant equate all religions/belief systems equally with each other, can you??
You can to some extent. Most religions can't be disproved without a lot of effort, except the bits where the supernatural interacts with the natural world. These bits are also the only evidence that any religion has. Most religions have a holy book that claims that God interacted with the world at some point in the past, but no religion has any modern evidence. So in that sense they're all equal.
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Postby gerren » Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:37 am

hmmm...true true....yes i see your point. Well, if there is a God that has the attributes you assigned to us then one/multiple religions can be correct or were basically all screwed. lol but lets start arguing about God/Creator himself instead of the religion. I will say this-the only thing I do know is that a God exists-Christianity is just something I have chosen, but sometimes does come in conflict with my ideas, but somehow i work them out or just think htat it is probably an old thing in the old book that is just...well old (i think that it is ok to have heretic ideals about the bible).
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Postby Nick » Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:13 am

Hitler will go to Hell because he murdered millions of people, but not because he "chose" to go to Hell.
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Postby houserichichi » Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:32 pm

I believe I read once that Hitler thought he was doing god's will as per some chapter in the bible. At any rate, crazy people do what crazy people do.

Upon further inspection it appears to be 1 Sam 15 but I can't confirm that at all.
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Postby Nick » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:49 pm

Hitler was Christian, and the Bible can be used to support any act of good or evil. Everyone thinks that the Ku'ran (spelling?) supports terrorists, and it does. But what people don't realize is that it is the Abrahamic, not the Muhammed-ic part of the Ku'ran that supports it.
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Postby gerren » Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:01 am

Hitler was Christian, and the Bible can be used to support any act of good or evil.


Do you think that Hitler read every part of the bible? The bible can be used to support any act of good and evil (a science book can too). It depends on the person who is using the reference/source (and he probably didnt use the bible, as its teachings were against violence, although some passages detail violence of the Israelites, it still does not support the violence).

Look at Lenin-he murdered people on a mass scale because he thought there was no God after reading Darwin's books on evolution. So dont try to pinpoint evil and murder on the Bible or God, as atheism has its effects too (remember there were many other atheism influenced murders too).
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Postby Nick » Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:40 am

Don't accuse me of blaming violence on the Bible, I did nothing of the kind. I was merely trying to point out that the Bible is not a reference of moral standing, as it contradicts itself morally.

I forget where, but in one part of the Bible, God tells someone that if anyone tries to persuade you to believe another God, you must stone him, or something like that. Talk about intolerance.
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Postby gerren » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:19 am

God tells someone that if anyone tries to persuade you to believe another God, you must stone him, or something like that


No, God teaches us to pray for that person to hope that they may believe in him. I do know of stories in the bible where that does happen by man's wishes, but nowhere does God's wishes condone violence of that sort or any sort.[/b]
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Postby Nick » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:25 am

I think the problem with you is, that you read only the parts of the Bible that the minister/preacher reads to you. Next time you find a couple hours of spare time, sit down and read EVERYTHING. You will find too many contradictions to be coincidence.
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Postby gerren » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:31 am

I think the problem with you is, that you read only the parts of the Bible that the minister/preacher reads to you.


Prove that I go to church. Prove that i havent read the bible, because obviously you havent. So, the problem with you is that you read only the websites that tell you the "contradictions" of the bible. So, Next time you find a couple hours of spare time, sit down and read EVERYTHING so that you will know EVERYTHING.
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Postby Nick » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:38 am

Please don't talk in caps, they don't make you sound any smarter.

I used to be Christian, and agnostic, just like you, except I ended up athiest, unlike you. I still do read everything. Whenever I find anything about religion, I read it. Whether it's athiestic or thiestic. I am a very open-minded person, I will change my beliefs as new evidence arrives.

You have a way of manipulating my words to make it sound like I'm accusing you of something. I said "I think the problem...". Notice the "think". I always try put a word like that in my sentences, in case I'm wrong (please notice the "try" in this sentence before you start posting quotes of me not doing so).
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Postby gerren » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:51 am

Next time you find a couple hours of spare time, sit down and read EVERYTHING


There you go contradicting yourself again, so im just going to say it like you said it "Please don't talk in caps, they don't make you sound any smarter".

I dont have a way of manipulating your words, but the website you posted sure does in the bible.
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Postby Nick » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:55 am

You most certainly do manipulate my words. You appear to take something such as "probably, ..." and remove the word probably.

I forgot I said that in caps! I'm sorry, you're right, I contradicted myself. What's with this "again", though? I'm fairly certain I didn't do so before...

Now I see, however, how easy it is to make a contradiction when you are trying to make a point. Maybe the guy who wrote the Bible, along with myself, should have done some proof-reading.
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Postby gerren » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:58 am

You appear to take something such as "probably, ..." and remove the word probably.


I dont have to do that to prove your point wrong or to make a rebuttal. I have not done so at all. Well, im glad that you said that I "appear" to do something like that, but I dont.
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Who among you are Jesus today!

Postby Russ1953 » Mon Nov 13, 2006 6:29 pm

It was feared the summoning of the distraught that a savior would come. That image was a threat to the order. At the time of his birth, it was decreed that whomever came upon him should slay him. Many of that time wept for deliverence from oppression. He must have been gifted to have done no harm to heal without demanding anything but telling the healed to go and tell no-one. Go and be caring. He even healed a slaved boy he never met and was greatly loved by his master. Was that cruel, to revive a chattled soul. His only act of violence was against those who held faith, and pardon hostage to those with money. A theif had more respect and compassion from the icons of the church. He was beaten, spit upon and murdered just for being good. His friends bailed, fearing for themselves, even though they themselves witnessed him healing and loving. If he lived today, the same fate would await him. I rejoice that he was, and pray his story will flourish. For the day that you can wrought no wrong, you will be envied to death. I would not wish upon any of you to be rewarded for these acts of kindness that way. It is the nature of beings to despise do gooders, because it is not found in them. Throw away all that was written around him, read and apply only all he said and lived and the new church will dwell in you and be truely reborn and be free in deed. What was also recorded of his words are in the book of Jubilees of which also was cast from the doctrine. His life is not religion, its what happens to good people in a world of power seekers. Let power begot power, and call upon all that is good, at least you've allowed your energy to join energy of others in need who believe that good should prevail. And if you mean it, good might come in your time of need. Is that religion? I say its good.
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Postby gerren » Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:01 am

god is dead and no one cares. if there is a hell then ill see you there. christianity had the answers to ease my curiosity. a man dreamed up a god and called it christianity. Hes got the power to kill of all of the swine. here is a poem that i wrote...GOD IS DEAD

Half-Thoughts



They dreamed up a being who keeps our people in line,
With only a gesture that could kill off all the swine,
He is dead, and no one cares.

The dirt fills my mouth,
As I try to breath,
But all of this shit in my head goes round and round,
And all of the technicalities make me want to scream.

Pull the trigger,
Its no fucking use,
He’ll send you to hell anyways,
After all of that abuse.

Save Me! Save Me!
The incompetent crowd yells,
But who is your savior?
He’s going to send us all to hell.

Twisted are your thoughts of this,
As only my kind can tell,
Because we’re all idiots,
Sending ourselves to hell.

Where is this green pasture we all hope to see?
Nowhere.
Where is this being we all hope to feel, see, touch or hear?
Nowhere.

Devoid of passion,
Devoid of love,
Devoid of this green pasture,
Because no one exists above.
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