Ponderings in a 4 dimensional world with time

[thesirquacksalot]

my first post, yeah!

first off this is a meandering post. please let me know any comments about any part anyone has

Questions

Do objects in a four dimensional world have four dimensional measurements? Possibilities are that a) objects have no fourth dimensional measurement, b)objects do have a fourth dimensional measurement or c) objects protrude infinately in the fourth dimension. Lets explore these possibilities.

a)objects have no fourth dimensional measurements.
A 3d cube looks like ... a 3d cube. This seems kind of strange that this would happen, are there objects that exist in 2d? Although it seems strange, this approach seems to have the least amount of problems.

b)objects have a fourth dimensional measurement
A 3d cube looks like...Well we don’t know. We understand that we cannot percieve in four dimensions, anything could happen. Just because the visible part looks like a cube, aside from the part that exists in the same 4th dimensional measurement as, it could be anything What if objects extend into this dimension? If we took a tour through the fourth dimension, would we see that everything extends? Could something like a marble be yet the tip of a large 4d object where only the tip reaches our visible realm? If we could tour through the fourth dimension could we see that it is actually a boulder, or that it is not symmetrical at all if we look at the fourth dimension? If the fourth dimension is time, do objects not exist currently at a moment in time or do they exist in a span of time both forward and backward from our perceivable 3d world?

c)objects protrude infinitely in the fourth dimension.
A 3d cube looks like... I guess I picture a rectangular prism extending infinately where every slice is a 3d cube This answer im not sure im willing to accept, objects with a measurement of infinity? If we are attributing the fourth dimension to time, does this mean that there is no free will? Are all things predetermined? however, If the fourth dimension is time, and this is not the case, Do all objects still exist at the same time and flow through time together, or are there other objects that are ahead or behind us in the journey through time that we would never see?



to try to answer this,

I started with the Idea of gravity. I looked at the model that im sure everyone reading this is familiar with, the bowling ball on the sheet of paper, showing the object bend the universe. This is actually the same model that made me think about an objects measurements, seeing a 3d object bend a 2d world. Anyhow, looking at the model, one can see that the bowling ball stretches the 2d world downward. This implied to me that in order for this to work, that bowling ball is pushing on the 2d world in a direction that is unknown to that world! The reason that this works is because there is a force pulling that bowling ball down! In this demonstration, we use idea that gravity pulls that bowling ball down to effect the 2d world as a basis to explain gravity itself? That is funny but a good demonstration. What I got out if it is that there must be a force pulling earth in a dimension that is unperceivable to us in order to create gravity! Immediately I thought of time! An object passes through layers of our universe in the direction of time to create gravity.

I thought about the relationship between time and gravity. One well known concept is that time passes slower in the presence of higher gravity. Through this I made the idea that the more massive an object is, the more ‘drag’ on the layers of universe it travels through which a) causes a larger stretch aka gravity and also slows its passage through these layers. Like trying to funnel a liquid through a small hole, the more matter trying to pass through a paticular layer of space will slow its progress through.

I then had a vision of when I was a kid and I was spraying the hose at my large trampoline. When I sprayed the hose on it for a while, not all of the water passed through the trampoline immediately, but when there was too much water on it, there would be a dip in the middle as the water was waiting for its turn to pass through onto the ground. When there was too much water, it got backed up and started creating the drag on the trampoline. This is how I see matter passing through layers of the universe in the direction of time, with one major exception, that objects do not break up as they pass through time, as the water must to pass through the trampoline, but time passes through us like a ghost.

Another thing I heard is that time slows down when an object moves at close to the speed of light. I show this by spraying the hose perpendicular to tramploline to show that the water passes through slower than when sprayed directly at it. When an object is moving fast, it slows its passage through time because it is like a rock skipping on the water.

Another thing I understand is that if you place two clocks in different gravitational fields then compare them side by side, they show different times. So how can that be? Can we see into the 4th dimension? Can this object really be existing in a different time yet still be visible?

This leads me to conclude that we can see all objects no matter where they are in the fourth dimension!
Well, then we should be able to see into the past and future, right? Well we cant. This must force me to infer about the nature of the 4th dimension. This is not time in the traditional sense. I will call it age. Objects all exist in our visible world, regardless of age. There is no time travel to the dinosaurs! All exists as one, but with different ages! The theory that if you move at the speed of light so that you age two hours will show that you have moved into the future years is not time travel! You merely slowed your aging by making it harder to slip through those layers while the rest of the world moves at its previous rate!


well thats about how far I got and I couldn’t really find this explanation on the internet, so I decided to submit it to see what some people who know physics and have studied this stuff think.

[Nick]

Everything dimension has a measurement; why would a fourth dimension be any different?

Welcome to the forum

[thesirquacksalot]

i definately understand this comment, and yes i do agree, however the nature of the 4th dimension seems to be very different than the other three we can percieve. when speaking of time, it seems strange to think that an object may have a dimensional measurement in the form of time

[Nick]

The fourth dimension is not time. The concept of time is an entirely different set of dimensions under the category of spacetime. The fourth dimension that we discuss here is the fourth spatial dimension, just like our three, but one that is perpendicular to all of our three at once.

And even if we were discussing time, time is also measurable.

[thesirquacksalot]

i understand that time is measureable, the statement was about an object occupying a span of time that is all moving through time, such as i occupy space in the first three dimensions and also move among them. what you have replied to is completely different from what was originally written. Is this forum about relativity and time travel in 4 dimensions plus time to make 5?

[papernuke]

Welcome.

Do objects in a four dimensional world have four dimensional measurements?

Yes they do, what difference do they have from the 3rd dimension? They just have one more direction than us. We measure our cubes (or objects) with length, breadth, and width, in the fourth dimension, as alkaline (alkaline created tetraspace) calls it , trenth, is another dimension, or direction.

Possibilities are that a) objects have no fourth dimensional measurement,

Only dimensions lower than four have no fourth dimensional measurement. We're one of them.

b)objects do have a fourth dimensional measurement or

Only objects in the fourth dimension or above have a four dimensional measurement.

c) objects protrude infinately in the fourth dimension.

What does that mean?

, are there objects that exist in 2d?

Only if there is a 2nd dimension, although I think there is.

A 3d cube looks like...Well we don’t know.

Just because the visible part looks like a cube, aside from the part that exists in the same 4th dimensional measurement as, it could be anything What if objects extend into this dimension?

Yes we do know what a 3d cube looks like. Even if we can't see part of it, dosen't mean its not there, even if you can't see it, if you stick your hand there, you still can feel it.

We understand that we cannot percieve in four dimensions, anything could happen.

If you somehow was able to preceive the cube from a fourth dimensional veiw, then you would be able to see all of the cube, including the inside, from every point of veiw.

How can a 3 dimensional object extend into the fourth dimensional direction while it being a 3 dimensional object?

If the fourth dimension is time, do objects not exist currently at a moment in time or do they exist in a span of time both forward and backward from our perceivable 3d world?

The fourth dimension is not time, it is a dimension quite like ours, but with a direction perpendicular to up, down, left, right, forewards, and backwards.

This implied to me that in order for this to work, that bowling ball is pushing on the 2d world in a direction that is unknown to that world!

No its not, up, down, forewards, and backwards are the directions of a 2d world.

In this demonstration, we use idea that gravity pulls that bowling ball down to effect the 2d world as a basis to explain gravity itself?

How can there not be gravity in their universe? There are the directions up, down, forewards, and backwards in their universe, and gravity pulls down, therefore, it could be there.

I thought about the relationship between time and gravity. One well known concept is that time passes slower in the presence of higher gravity. Through this I made the idea that the more massive an object is, the more ‘drag’ on the layers of universe it travels through which a) causes a larger stretch aka gravity and also slows its passage through these layers. Like trying to funnel a liquid through a small hole, the more matter trying to pass through a paticular layer of space will slow its progress through.

Thats exactly what a black hole is.

but time passes through us like a ghost.

How can time go thorugh us?

I show this by spraying the hose perpendicular to tramploline to show that the water passes through slower than when sprayed directly at it.

You can only see a clear difference when the object gets very close, not that far away.

This leads me to conclude that we can see all objects no matter where they are in the fourth dimension!

No we cant, we can see all the objects in the 2nd, 1st, or 0th dimension, but not higher.

[thesirquacksalot]

forgive me i dont know how to quote yet

c) objects protrude infinately in the fourth dimension
this refers to theories about time columns that record where any object has been; as time seems continuous, an object would have a 3 dimensional coordinate relatating to every moment in time since its existence, meaning that its shape would appear as a hyperprism? i dont know if that is the right word.

"Just because the visible part looks like a cube, aside from the part that exists in the same 4th dimensional measurement as, it could be anything What if objects extend into this dimension?


Yes we do know what a 3d cube looks like. Even if we can't see part of it, dosen't mean its not there, even if you can't see it, if you stick your hand there, you still can feel it. "

what i mean is that an object that appears to be a cube in our percievable world could be a 3 dimensional cross section of a much more complex four dimensional object. If you hammered a 3d nail through a 2 dimensional flatland, the flatlanders would percieve it as a mere circle, while in reality it is much more complex than a circle, or even a sphere which the savvy flatlander might theorize it to be...

"This implied to me that in order for this to work, that bowling ball is pushing on the 2d world in a direction that is unknown to that world!


No its not, up, down, forewards, and backwards are the directions of a 2d world. "

of course this is a dimension that is not percievable! the model i referred to was a 2 dimensional plane that was being pushed in a direction that is not in according to either of those dimensions, the plane has width and length, but it has no height! the plane is being pushed perpindicular to both of those directions.

"but time passes through us like a ghost.


How can time go thorugh us? "
I believe that the fabric off the universe passes through us, if the universe was fluid it would have no structure and if it didnt pass through us an object moving through time would always create a black hole by infinately stretching the universe. i believe that as we move, in any dimension, the universe moves through us to maintain its structure, it moves through us like dropping a wiffle ball in water, yes it moves through the water, but also the water moves through it.

"This leads me to conclude that we can see all objects no matter where they are in the fourth dimension!


No we cant, we can see all the objects in the 2nd, 1st, or 0th dimension, but not higher."

if we could not, as soon as an object altered its passage through time, like an astronaut in space slows his aging, he would become instantly invisible because although the 3 dimensional coordinate would put him in close proximty, we could not see into this dimension. if i put an object resting on a piece of paper representing flatland, it would still be invisible to flatland. the 2 dimensional coordinates would be the same, but that little alteration in that third unpercievable dimension would render the entire object invisible.[/quote]

[thesirquacksalot]

also, i realize that you guys are attributing all this to a world were there are four dimensions that all act the same. i completely understand this idea that you guys are comparing to, but the problem about time is that it definately does not act like any other dimension, no matter what. i understand all the concepts of a 4 dimensional object free of the concept of time.

[Nick]

also, i realize that you guys are attributing all this to a world were there are four dimensions that all act the same.

Because that makes sense. Why would another euclidean dimension be any different from the other three? That's like saying height is special from length and width because its the third dimension. Which really doesn't make sense, considering that no particular dimension is the "third" one, same as in a 4d world any dimension can be the "fourth" one.

but the problem about time is that it definately does not act like any other dimension

Yeah, because the other dimensions are spatial dimensions, whereas time is the first temporal dimension. What's your point?

[thesirquacksalot]

whats the point? i said that i am talking about time as being different than the other three dimensions and you said that that doesnt make sense, then you said that time is different, where do you stand? [/quote]

[Nick]

i said that i am talking about time as being different than the other three dimensions

No, actually you said:

i realize that you guys are attributing all this to a world were there are four dimensions that all act the same

You said four dimensions in the second one; whenever you say dimension on this forum, we assume you mean euclidean unless you specify temporal.

[papernuke]

http://tetraspace.alkaline.org/forum/vi ... .php?t=959. I asked that question for the quotes thing.

[thesirquacksalot]

yes this is all true... i further describe that you are replying as though i was talking about 4 euclidian dimensions but i was indeed talking about a temporal dimension as i thought was clear by calling the dimension "time" or "age" still any disparancies?

[thesirquacksalot]

i would like to add primarily to i will rock you, all you have responded to are things you see as discrepancies which i see as misunderstandings. i wish for you to see the primary post as i see it, and then give me commmentary.

[PWrong]

Ok, I read your first post again. If you're calling time the fourth dimension (you should just call it time), then by "fourth dimensional measurement", you must mean "duration".

So your three options become:

a) the duration of any object is zero
b) all objects have a finite, nonzero duration
c) all objects have an infinite duration

For anything that has a beggining and an end, the answer is (b).

[Nick]

i would like to add primarily to i will rock you, all you have responded to are things you see as discrepancies which i see as misunderstandings. i wish for you to see the primary post as i see it, and then give me commmentary.

Actually, I wanted to change my name to Nick, but I can't, so I'm stuck with Irockyou. Besides, the purpose is that other people can say how much they rock me simply by saying my name.

Second, I am not pointing out discrepencies, I am simply trying to understand what you were writing.

And I did give you commentary. I said option b, everything has a finite measurement, because the fourth dimension is just like the other three, and no different.

[bo198214]

Actually, I wanted to change my name to Nick

You wanted to change you nick to nick?!

[papernuke]

WHy do you want to change your name to nick?

[Nick]

Because my name in real life is Nick.

[houserichichi]

I know a Nick! I'll bet he's you!

As for the argument above, this is the relativity part of the board. I think it's necessarily implied (unless otherwise stated) that one is working with 3 spatial dimensions and one of time (hence *special* relativity). At any rate, no sense arguing something that's plainly obvious from the original post. From here on in when the word "time" is thrown into the mix one's brain should turn on a light and say "hey, they're probably talking about relativity".

[thesirquacksalot]

duration aha thats what i was looking for, so heres a question, If an object alters its time (by any method discussed) slightly, so that the duration of the object and the observer overlapped, it would be visible to the observer? what about at the exact second the durations no longer overlap, does it instantaneously vanish?

[PWrong]

If an object alters its time (by any method discussed) slightly, so that the duration of the object and the observer overlapped, it would be visible to the observer?

Technically in relativity, durations can't be said to overlap. If two events are simultaneous in one frame of reference, they may not be in another frame of reference. To answer your question you'd have to draw spacetime diagrams and do a bunch of stuff.

But even nonrelativistically, it depends on how far away the object is from the observer, and the duration of the overlap. It's worth noting that objects don't instantly appear and disappear (except in quantum mechanics), because that would violate conservation of mass/energy.