A theory about travelling faster than light ...

Discussion of theories involving time as a dimension, time travel, relativity, branes, and so on, usually applying to the "real" universe which we live in.

A theory about travelling faster than light ...

Postby Juls » Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:01 am

Hi!!

I have a theory about how to travel intergalactic distances without surpasing the speed of light, in fact a much lower velocity would be sufficient. The idea striked me while I was thinking about Fred's plannar universe and how Fred would see a 3D sphere passing throught in front of him. Now just imagine that throught some fourth dimension manipulation of the 3D matter you could enlarge an object, increasing the volume but without altering the mass, decreasing it's density. A ship enlarged, for example, 1 million times it's size would be able to travel 1 million times faster than the same ship navigating at it's normal size. It's like comparing the diference in the distance that a human and a, for example, a giant could run in one step. A ship enlarged to the size of an entire galaxy would be able to go to the far reaches of the universe in no time.
The idea may sound a bit silly but I like the concept, that may be more coherent instead of bending the space just to bend the ship.
I have no idea of how to do it ;). But if Emily only rotating the Bob's box on the 4th dimension acomplishes such an incredible task that's to invert all the box's molecular structure may be ... Anyway we are too used to think in 3 dimensions. The posibilies of the manipulation of our 3D space throught the fourth dimension are far beyond our imagination (at least far beyond my imagination :) )
I love the pseudo-cience XD
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Postby Geosphere » Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:28 pm

Doesn't work that way. Just because it is less dense to start does not mean it does not gain infinite density approaching the speed of light, it just means its ration of speed to mass increases acceleration.

It will just get heavier faster. In truth, all your system would do would slow it down faster as it approached light speed.
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Postby sup2069 » Tue Jan 06, 2004 2:52 pm

What if you had a device that could alter the physics of an object to have low density and mass no matter how the law of physics may try to change it?

If you had one on your ship, it could be possible to go faster than light.
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Postby Geosphere » Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:10 pm

... device that could alter the physics ...

At that point, you are throwing out known science. Which may not be incorrect, just undiscovered. But it leaves no room for debate or discussion, since you can then basically counter any point with "Its magic".
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Postby Juls » Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:03 pm

mmm... Geosphere, you are right. Let's talk about the density of an "enlarged" object. To make more easy to explain let's take a molecule of hidrogen. If you enlarge the molecule you would not be increasing the distance between the atoms nor you would be increasing the distance between the electron and it's core. For example, imagine a pearl's necklace. The process would be like getting a giant necklace with giant pearls and a giant thread, not getting a longer necklace with alonger thread with the same pearls. If you get a giant necklace (with the same mass) then the density has to be lower but we are not working with conventional matter anymore. The process takes place at a very internal level (sub-sub-sub-[a lot of subs :)]-subatomic level). And that's remind me the talk about how many 2D dimensions would exist in a finite 3D dimension...
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Postby sup2069 » Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:20 pm

True geo, but I was just shooting in the dark.
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Postby RQ » Sat Jan 10, 2004 9:46 pm

Well, I suppose that if the ship was bigger, but not denser, then it wouldn't be any harder to accelarate, but it would have to get really really big and it wouldn't be that practical since the only difference it would make is the distance that the ship would cover from back to front, which couldn't be that big since it would collide with suns, planets, black holes, etc. and besides for it to be bigger it would still have to have walls made of molecules which take up mass, so no.
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Postby alkaline » Mon Jan 12, 2004 3:26 pm

no matter what the size or density of the ship, it is still travelling through the fabric of our realmspace, and thus it is limited to our speed of light. Thus, the bigger it was, the slower it would actually seem like they were going, because they'd be limited to the same absolute speed as something that was smaller.
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Postby RQ » Sun Jan 18, 2004 8:25 am

no, but I think she's talking about the difference in between the length, so for example the small ship would be say 100 feet long, but the big one 1000,000, so that difference amounts to a 999,900 in which case it is the same as if the small ship was traveling say 999,899 feet per second less than the speed of light, but when it expands it would be the same as if it had traveled those 999,900 feet, since the ship expanded and therefore was faster than the speed of light by 1 foot per second.
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Postby sup2069 » Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:04 am

Still impossbile, lets say that it had density and mass. The amount of fuel needed to propel the craft would be enormous. To push it to the speed of light would take infinite fuel.

Talking about non density and mass objects that big, I would have to rely on Eintein's theory that nothing can go faster than the speed of light.
Last edited by sup2069 on Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby spikey » Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:39 am

hello there,

I personally don't think that there will be a difference in the speed of the the hugh ship with similar small mass as the smaller ship, because of the length contraction that occurse when an object reaches the speed of light.
this length contraction follows (from memory) this formula L=L(0)* sqrt(1-(v/C)^2), this means that when the speed of light is reach tha both ships will be actually the same size, that is infinitely small.

so no matter from which length we start, it matters at which length we and up with as the speed of light.

greatings spikey :twisted:
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Postby RQ » Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:50 pm

Im not saying there will be a difference in the speed. The difference in length will make it by observation as if the smaller ship were traveling those extra 10 feet per second and therefore to the observer it will seem like he is going faster than the speed of light.
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Postby alkaline » Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:44 pm

That can't be true. If an observer expands, and his ship expands at the same rate, If he observes nothing else but himself and his ship, it doesn't seem like he's changed size at all. It can never *seem* like you are travelling faster than light. Light will always reach you at the speed of light relative to you, so if light continues to reach you at the speed of light, it won't seem like you are travelling faster than it.
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Postby Geosphere » Wed Jan 21, 2004 9:05 pm

RQ, that defies not only common relativity, but quantum mechanics.

Relativity means it is always relative to the observer. If I run with a flashlight, it doesn't mean the forward end of the beam exceeded the speed of light by my footspeed. If that were true, reality would be breaking down around us.
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Postby RQ » Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:35 am

Yes, but the ship isn't traveling at the speed of light, and it isn't light. Think of the ship this way. It is armed. It's traveling at ten feet per second less than the speed of light. If the ship launched a rocket that is faster than 10 feet per second, then the rocket would exceed the speed of light.
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Postby RQ » Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:38 am

Oh, wait, I forgot that time would have to be so small that if the rocket got to the speed of light time would stop, and anything further would make negative time, so no.
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Postby FK » Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:40 pm

RQ:

the whole pont of relativety is, that nothing can ever "seem" to be faster than light. if the spaceship is going at 99% the speed of light, the speed of light is still the same, relativ to your speed.

and the difference in leanth, doesnt change the speed either... a buss is not faster than a small car, just becouse its a buss.... right?
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Postby RQ » Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:46 am

I suppose you're right, but my thought was that suppose let's say that the ship was traveling at say half the speed of light, and it sent out a rocket that traveled at 3/4 the speed of light, the rocket would then travel faster than light by one quarter.
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Postby FK » Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:40 pm

no...

thats not the point

ok ... so the lets say this spaceship has got a flashlight at its front.

the light going out of this spaceship is going at app. 300.000km/sec

now, the spaceship accelerates to 200.000km/sec ...

the light now does not go 500.000km/sec, but 300.000Km/sec

hm ...

i just realised, that i dont know half as much about this topic as i think.

for someone outside of the spaceship, the rocket should appear faster than light... ... but thats not possible ...

hm ... maybe someone else could clear this up ...
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Postby Watters » Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:03 pm

Hi.

That would be logic RQ not actual physis. Althogtuh the idea of the torpedo makes sence that is not how it works. If you run towords a a car at 2m/s (fast person) and the car is traveling towards you at 20m/s your speed relitive to the car's speed relitive to you is 12m/s. BUT, light doens't work like that. if you run at 2m/s towards a beam of light and teh lgiht is travleing at 3*10^8m/s (speed of light) the speed of light relitive to you is still 3*10^8. that is just the basic idea. you cabn't change it. And to replie to the sup2069 a littel while back, Eintein's said that if you go to the speed of light the mass becomes infinate. There are these particals that don't have mass(don't realy know how it works) that move at speeds faster tehn teh speed of light but can't move slower than it. Just wondering if any oen esle knows about these and can enliten me
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Postby Watters » Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:04 pm

Sry i didn't read the one below RQ's must have missed it (blames it on worm hole :? ) i apologise
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Postby elpenmaster » Sat Mar 20, 2004 5:42 am

if the universe is infinitely big, then a ship could theoretically expand to be infinitelly big, and would have zero density. but it would have infinite size, so its mass would be finite. there is no way a ship can expand and bbecome infinitely light in mass
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Postby Watters » Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:15 pm

What you are explaining is some what like a worm hole (some belive, it is the 4th dimension) The way you would expand to infinte size youw mean you are every where and no where at once. Sort of what it is like in a theroretical worm hole. But if a ship expanded to infinite size then there would be no where to go :) and there for couldn't havea velocity.
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Postby RQ » Mon Mar 22, 2004 5:13 am

I thought that the perspective is all that matters, whether or not it is actually you that's slower doesn't matter since that's not what observers would agree on.

I suppose even if the rocket added on 3/4c to its initial 3/4c, it would still need more energy to accelarate.
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Postby jinydu » Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:58 am

RQ wrote:I suppose you're right, but my thought was that suppose let's say that the ship was traveling at say half the speed of light, and it sent out a rocket that traveled at 3/4 the speed of light, the rocket would then travel faster than light by one quarter.


You are assuming that it is possible to simply add the speeds (that is, 1/2 + 3/4 = 5/4). This is correct in "Newtonian" physics, but in fact, the formula is NOT true for relativity.

Instead, if there is a rocket traveling with speed u (relative to you), which then fires a rocket in the same direction with speed v, the speed of the rocket (relative to you) is:

(u+v)/(1+(uv/c^2))

This formula can be found in both my Physics textbook and at many websites (ex. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... invel.html)

Thus, for the original problem, the velocity of the rocket relative to you is:

(0.5c + 0.75c)/(1+(0.5*0.75))
(1.25c)/(1.375)
(10/11)c

This is closer to the speed of light than either 0.5c or 0.75c, but its still less than the speed of light.
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Postby jinydu » Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:39 am

Also, particles that travel faster than light are called tachyons.

"In 1973, using a large collection of particle detectors, Philip Crough and Roger Clay identified a putative superluminal particle in an air shower, although this result has never been reproduced."

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Tachyon.html

Physicists disagree about whether tachyons exist.
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Postby Geosphere » Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:41 pm

jinydu wrote:Physicists disagree about whether tachyons exist.


So do members of this board.
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Postby jinydu » Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:36 pm

Personally, I think that they don't exist. Using the equations of Special Relativity (SR), it is possible to show that if one observer observers an object moving faster than the speed of light, another observer will observe the object travelling back in time. And being able to go back in time causes a lot of problems (ex. the Grandfather Paradox: If you could kill your grandfather before he met your grandmother, you could never have been born, but then who could have killed your grandfather?).
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Mghty Moop

Postby mghtymoop » Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:08 am

thats why you never travel at the speed of light, you can travel slower and you can travel faster, just not at it. but how do you accelerate past the speed of light without going through it, you use exotic particles to put a hole in time-space and simply skip it by not existing as you pass it. but really people isn't it just so much simpler to bend space.
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Postby RQ » Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:40 am

That's a nice try jinydu, but ur formula is for objects moving towards each other, not the other way around.
I do believe that the rocket will not travel at or more than c, it's just this problem was asked by my dad and made me think.
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