The Twin Paradox and a Glome Shaped Universe

Discussion of theories involving time as a dimension, time travel, relativity, branes, and so on, usually applying to the "real" universe which we live in.

Postby RQ » Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:18 pm

sorry for double post, didn't want my post to get too big like last time:

houserichichi wrote:Quote:
A finite element subtracted by any of infinite elements, still gives you an infinite amount of elements. No such thing as positive or negative infinity.


The first part is true, but you need to consider what direction you're coming from. If you take a very small number, say 1, and subtract a very large number, say 14 trillion, you get a very "large" negative number...that is, the absolute value of that subtraction is a big number, but the sign is negative. Same goes for this...take a number, subtract an infinite value from it, you'd be heading off towards negative infinity.

If there's no such thing as positive or negative infinity, how does one differentiate the limits of the graph 1/x as x approaches zero? On the left side of the y-axis it heads straight down, and on the right it heads straight up. I'd say those are two different "values" it's approaching.


A very big number is not infinity now is it?
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Postby RQ » Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:24 pm

houserichichi wrote:Quote:
An infinite number of elements each multiplied by 0, does not give you 0.


This one's convention...they're giving serious priority to the 0 multiplication rule.

Quote:
Infinitesimal is 0


This is the big difference between regular arithmetic and transfinite arithmetic...there is a huge difference between an infinitesimal and zero...so I hope you just haven't taken a course in calculus yet because that's exactly how it works.


The 0 multiplication rule applies to a number x, not infinity. You can't have a postulate working postulates.

a number constantly divided by numbers, ex. infinite set will eventually converge to 0. The perfect applicational example is the dimensions. 3D consists of infinitely stacked 2D, so in order to get 2D you need to unstack them, yet 2D has 0 volume with respect to 3D
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Postby RQ » Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:29 pm

houserichichi wrote:Quote:
1/0=0


Check a graph of 1/x...as x approaches zero (as I mentioned above) it tends to infinities, depending on which way you come from...it doesn't converge to zero.

Quote:
That's just stupid


Prove it wrong. It's the basis of every introductory calculus class you'll ever take.

Quote:
Untrue. Subtracting an infinite amount of elements from one infinite set to another still gives you an infinite amount of elements.


As a practical example, take the set of integers. Take the cardinality. Subtract that cardinality from itself and what does it give you? Infinity? No.


It may go there doesn't mean it is there.

A number that is small and there is no smaller number does not exist if it's not 0 if you're using division.

infinity-infinity not the cardinality, though I don't understand the concept very well.

If you have an infinite set of [x,x,x,.....] minus [y,y,y,y....] you still have an infinite set of [x-y,x-y,x-y....]
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Postby houserichichi » Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:09 pm

there is no such thing as an infinite number


Not in the context you're thinking of...we're not talking about the real numbers though - it's a superset of them though. Robinson proved in the 50s that they're logical to work with, so they do exist.

A very big number is not infinity now is it?


Depends what you mean by number. The cardinality of finite sets have finite value, for instance. The cardinality of countably infinite sets of a "smaller" infinite value than uncountably infinite sets. We're not talking sets though, so I apologize for that aside. A very big number isn't infinity in the reals, but again we're not limiting ourselves to the reals...there's not enough structure in them.

The 0 multiplication rule applies to a number x, not infinity


It's not limited in this algebra...in this algebra infinity is a number. Have you taken introductory complex analysis before? Do you know what points at infinity are? The Riemann sphere is something you may want to look up.

A number that is small and there is no smaller number does not exist if it's not 0 if you're using division


"If you're using real number division"

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Skip this part if you want until after the stars

infinity-infinity not the cardinality, though I don't understand the concept very well.

If you have an infinite set of [x,x,x,.....] minus [y,y,y,y....] you still have an infinite set of [x-y,x-y,x-y....]


In that last part I'm not sure what minus you're using. Are those ordered sets of are they tuples of numbers? If it's a tuple then it's got nothing to do with subtraction in our case. If they're sets, then that's not how you "subtract" them.

If you have triples S = (1,2,3) and T = (4,5,6) and define subtraction as you have above, then

(1,2,3) - (4,5,6) = (1-4 , 2-5 , 3-6) = (-3,-3,-3)

which makes sense. But we're not talking tuples, we're talking sets...so even if we used your subtraction definition (which doesn't exist in set theory the way you're thinking of it), we'd have

{1,2,3} - {4,5,6} = {1-4 , 2-5 , 3-6} = {-3,-3,-3} = {-3}

since we're talking sets now. The size of that set is 1, not 3, so even if that subtraction were the way we do it, it would come up with a different sized set in the end, possibly.

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But as I mentioned before, the infinity - infinity thing doesn't follow the rules you're used to because we're not dealing with the same sets. This subtraction is different in the same sense that matrix multiplication is different than real number multiplication. They share the same name, but aren't the same operation.

I talk too much :oops:
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Postby RQ » Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:44 am

There is no such thing as a number that equals infinity. Infinity is basically R, or with respect to what you're talking about. Infinity-infinity has to be specified, and in the case of R it is infinity.
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Postby houserichichi » Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:22 am

Infinity is a concept, but in the extended reals (and the hyperreals) we place "points at infinity" so we can work with more obtuse questions like infinity subtracted by infinity. It's counterintuitive to what they'd teach you in a regular math class but nonetheless it's algebraically sound - points at infinity are alright and so are infinitessimals.
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Postby RQ » Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:02 pm

I know that, but a single number from an infinite set removed doesn't make a difference thus 1/infinity=0:

[1,1,1,1,....] If an element 1 is removed there is still an infinite set of 1's
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Postby houserichichi » Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:01 pm

It's true, an infinite set less an element is still infinite - but you're not necessarily talking about the same infinity as on a number line if you want to use the set argument. Set cardinalities introduce different "levels", if you will, of infinity. There are "more" real numbers than integers, but there are still infinitely many of each. There are the "same numbers" of numbers between 0 and 1 as there are between 0 and 2 as there are in all the reals. Infinite sets are a tricky thing to deal with which is why they are usually reserved (as far as I understand) to university to study properly.
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Postby RQ » Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:23 am

The infinite set that I'm referring to is the kind that makes up the dimensions: Say the 3rd is made up of an infinite number of 2D layers, yet since there are different shapes in 3D, the 2D layers are possibly Plank length.
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Postby wendy » Sun Jan 23, 2005 1:17 pm

Infinity is about 71, for increasing values of 71.

Seriously, it does little good to talk about 'infinity' as if it were singular. The current deep probes into various kinds of infinity are showing things of interest.

We now have a model of the complete Euclidean plane, including all the trans-horizon stuff. The geometry is strikingly euclidean still, but is one where every point in the plane except any is infinitely far away. This is hyper-euclidean geometry, and i should one day include it in the polygloss.

The different infinitely-dense tilings means there are kinds of infinity that we can differentiate powers meaningfully from.

The notion of 1/0 and infinity has always amused me. I have not seen any conclusive proof of this being infinity, and the usual rating of 1/0 is the number aleph(sub -1), or even less.

Certianly, there are geometric effects that come from 1/0 (ie the antipodal approach), but there is a good deal of space between the 1/0 horizon and the deep diameter of all-space.

Oh well, just from the front...

(don't worry, i toss this past professors as well).....

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