Did I see four dimensions?

[duraultra]

Hello, my name is Jordan. I recently joined this forum with hopes to get some answers. I am aware that a lot of you have a lot more knowledge than I do regarding the fourth dimension. I am also aware that the subject of this thread, "Did I see four dimensions?", sounds ridiculous since I am a three-dimensional being. But recently I saw something that has left me in awe. I am suspicious that I may have seen in four dimensions for a short amount of time. I don't know how or why, but I will explain the story to you. What I'm about to tell you will probably create a lot of doubt in most of your minds, but I beg you to read it all and decide for yourself.

I must provide you with a brief background of the event and myself. First of all I'm an easy going guy, modest if anything, not at all flashy. I am 18 years old and a senior in highschool. I earn decent grades and I am in the top 2% of the class. I study, do my homework, and get the job done. I am also a very curious person. I love to learn new concepts, especially those that are mind boggling. I also like to test reality, if you will. That is why I am an occasional drug user. When I say occasional, I mean once every three months on average. This is includes all drugs, and I've only taken part in three. They are: Alcohol, Marijuana, and LSD. Please bear with me because this all has to do with the topic. I use marijuana more than anything else, and alcohol the least. I like having an altered mind occasionaly, I really do feel that it "frees" my thoughts a bit. I know many of you disagree with the action of consuming drugs, and I respect your opinion, but please stay with me. Anyway, through the use of LSD I believe I may have seen the fourth dimension. I was at my friends house and the LSD intoxication lasts for quite a while, so we gave ourselves the whole day, starting at about 9:00 in the morning. We each took part in one dose (exact amount cannot be specified because it was on blotter paper).

Now that I have given you the background of the situation I will get to the meaning of this. Sometime deep into the climax of my LSD intoxication I was sitting in a living riving on a wooden chair. For some reason I was looking at another chair sitting somewhere in the middle of the room. This chair was a computer desk chair, a chair with four wheels and spins. It was facing me. However, I imagine the description is not too important. So, I was looking at this chair when I noticed something very odd. Everything started to rotate. I wasn't moving, but everything I was looking at, in example the chair, was rotating in all directions from one point. This startled me a little bit because I was seeing the backside of the chair, even though the FRONT was facing me. [NO, the chair itself was not moving!] The rotation speed seemed to speed up until I realized that I was seeing the chair, and the rest of the room, at every possible three-dimensional angle at once. It is extremely hard for me to describe what seeing the chair and the rest of the room from every possible angle was like. Everything was sort of meshed and took on irregular shapes that I would never have been able to comprehend before seeing them. It did NOT look like a bunch of different images layered over eachother. It was almost as if my vision was bending around each object. But seeing the chair from every angle made me realize that there was more to it, much more to it. By that point I realized I was not only seing the chair in every possible three-dimentional angle, but I was also seeing more of the chair than was ever there in three dimensions. It was almost as if everything I was seeing imploded and exploded and retained original shape at the the same time, yet meshed into one shape that still has me baffled. The chair that normally looked so straight and so symetrical was now a complete mess. It was like...it was EVERYWHERE. But everything else in the room was everywhere too! What I thought was everywhere before didn't seem to exist because everywhere took on a new meaning. I also began to feel like I was being...pulled. Pulled isn't the right word though, because the feeling I am trying to describe I never thought existed. It was sort of like being pulled by gravity, but not just down, in every direction. And in other directions that I didn't know existed. And every part of my body down to each atom felt like it was being pull in every direction plus the directions that I didn't think existed. Again, remember I am trying to be careful with the word pull because it really wasn't the same. But it was as if I taking up new space. Space that I've never felt before perhaps.

I don't know what else to say that, but I have a great desire for replies. I will glady answer any questions if you answer mine: Did I see in four dimensions? I understand that I was on a drug at the time, but that really is irrelevant if you think about it, because regardless of being sober or not, I saw what I saw. Please respond!!! Thank you.

[thigle]

hi Jordan. that's not a crime to alter your own consciousness. it's a crime to restrict anyone to do it.

anyway, what you experienced seems to mee like an 'ordinary' LSD experience (by that i mean it's not that uncommon in the zoo of uncommomn experiences that LSD allows).
the very exhaustion of viewpoints , or rather in your case the presence of them all, is what one experiences when visual awareness is in diffuse focus. in that way, all the 'pixels' of vision start to spin, and the anchoring of consciousness to a place is loosened. in a state when 'things' (the figures on the perceptual ground) are left to themselves so far that they animate, and when the ego of the tripper is loosened so that perceptual mechanisms become unbound from placedness-habit so that one starts perceiving allocaly - not bound to 'from-here' habit.

anyway, you might have glimpsed 4dimensional state of consciousness, or the treshold to it.

[Nick]

I totally agree with Thigle; he stole the words right out of my mouth.

You were under a drug, and that's what caused it. It is possible to experience a 4d state of mind; I've experienced something similar myself. However, even if what you say did actually happen (sober or not), you still didn't see 4 dimensions; seeing 4 dimensionally is seeing every point on and in a 3d object. In other words, you would have seen the insides and the outsides of the chair at once.

It's not a matter of seeing every angle, either. If you were a 2d being, you would see 1 dimensionally. Just because you see every angle of a square at once doesn't mean your looking at it 3 dimensionally either.

Welcome to the forums!

[PWrong]

that's not a crime to alter your own consciousness.

Uhh, technically it is. Although I don't know if it should be.

@duraultra
I suppose it's theoretically possible that you could have seen the chair the way a 4D person would see it. You have a picture of the front of the chair before your eyes, you have a memory of what the back of the chair looks like, and you can guess what the inside of a chair might look like. Given this information, the mind can calculate a rough picture of what the chair would look like from 4D. Since you were on LSD, it's possible that your mind could randomly decide to do that. However, your description of what you saw isn't what a 4D person would see at all, so I imagine you saw some other random mesh created from your vision and memories. I don't think you can actually observe anything real with LSD that you can't observe without it. For instance, if the chair had a big red spot on the back that you didn't know about, you wouldn't see the spot in your hallucination.

[duraultra]

First of all, thanks for all of your input. I was really expecting to be flamed
heavily.

Thigle - Yes, LSD has quite a library of things to see.

So I understand what you are saying. Whether or not it was a glimse of the fourth dimension, do you think it would be possible to see from that state again? Or even see it again without being intoxicated? I still have memory of what I saw obviously, but that memory seems to be quickly diminishing because I never see anything like it on a regular basis. Is it possible to manually produce the same effects? I apologize if that sounds a bit silly, but I really don't want to forget what I saw.

irockyou -

In other words, you would have seen the insides and the outsides of the chair at once.

Actually, I think I did see that. I believe I mentioned everything looked imploded and exploded at once. Exploded is probably the wrong word because it commonly refers to something spontaneously combusting and getting bigger. I do believe I was seeing more than normal but nothing was necessarily bigger, but that's besides the point. What I am trying to say is when I said imploded, I meant I was seeing the chair inside-out, or at least I thought I was. Yet I still saw every other aspect of the chair that I mentioned earlier. I'm definitely not claiming I saw the fourth dimension, but with that said, does it seem more likely?

PWrong - I very much agree with you. What I saw was more than likely a random generation and my mind's guess at what 4D might look like, but not 4D in actuality. I don't think I understand your statement saying, "I don't think you can actually observe anything real with LSD that you can't observe without it." Do you really mean that you can't see something you havn't seen before the LSD intoxication because you have no memory of it?

[thigle]

whether or not it was the glimpse of whatever dimension, it was not as some would believe - that LSD made you see what was not there, it maade you see what IS out there (the noumena, or magma of the world), differently from ordinary stabilised patterning of experience, WITHOUT certain restricting patternigs, that ordinarily bound the outcome of perceptiion to becoming seemingly stable.

that state is surely attainable without psychedelics. it is a matter of less 'instancy' though - it takes at least 2 - 3 weeks to untrained person to notice certain effects and extended range of interfaces to choose from.
to gain access to all the states that acid unfolds, one needs in my experience about a year or two of everyday(40-60min) training of concentrative / abstractive powers of mind. these 2 complementarities when fully grasped and actualised, allow more than LSD.

however, as you can notice, in daily routine life-flow, one is often hardly able to get to a practice of no-time, of complete non-movement beyond movement and quietitude. the memory fades (unless you are eidetic or have some uncommon memory ability), as you say, because you never see anything like it on a regular basis. however there is much that we don't see on a regular basis precisely because of that - we don't see it.

it is helpful when trying to achieve lasting imprint of certain experience to catch by a drawing, even if 'unartistic', but authentic, true to the experience, it might be just a sign, few words, a diagram or whatever. perhaps a weird glossolalic expression, or a dance-sequence. some anchors.

if you wanna see what you saw, you might for exemple sit daily for 30 minutes, be aware of all manifestations of your energy (like thoughts, emotions, memories, images, intuitions,...), let be your breath to unfold & infold naturally with timeless silences in between, do not become tricked by any apparitions in your visual field. within months it can happen that much re-patterning of (not-only) visual field comes about. just settle your mind into more than stillness, so that no categorisation occurs. when naked awareness is present, the very shine of the within of the world will shine in pulses and be seen by noone there.

[Nick]

irockyou -

In other words, you would have seen the insides and the outsides of the chair at once.

Actually, I think I did see that. I believe I mentioned everything looked imploded and exploded at once. Exploded is probably the wrong word because it commonly refers to something spontaneously combusting and getting bigger. I do believe I was seeing more than normal but nothing was necessarily bigger, but that's besides the point. What I am trying to say is when I said imploded, I meant I was seeing the chair inside-out, or at least I thought I was. Yet I still saw every other aspect of the chair that I mentioned earlier. I'm definitely not claiming I saw the fourth dimension, but with that said, does it seem more likely?

You forgot my second point; just because you see every 3d angle of the chair, even if both inside and outside, you still didn't see 4 dimensionally. 4 dimensionally would have been a completely different angle altogether; one that you have never experienced before. Which is impossible with our limited 3d physiology. I'm not accusing you of declaring that you saw the fourth dimension, but its definitely not more likely; it's more along the lines of impossible.

[papernuke]

But still, to see in the 4d, you see everything in the 3d point, so you would see the inside of the chair also, not only all the sides.

[duraultra]

Now that I think about though...
We are in a three dimensional world. But we see on a two dimensional plane...correct? So maybe I was seeing on a three dimensional plane, or something like it, but not necessarily "in" 4D?

[jinydu]

LSD is a hallucinogen; it causes the brain to perceive things that are not there. So no, it is not a genuine 4D experience; it is just the brain malfunctioning.

[bo198214]

Jinydu this is no proper reasoning. Why cant he have perceived 4d if it was a hallucination? Especially if everyone on the board agrees that 4d is a fictional world ... (is intelligence not anyway a malfunctioning of the brain *lol*)

What Pwrong said is a quite interesting point. Before your next LSD trip let alter a person hidden details of the room. For example distributing red stripes in the room at non-visible places (for example below the chair pad). Try to find them in your vision!

[duraultra]

Yeah, jinydu, I was gonna say...why would that matter?

Anyway, I think what Thigle said was very interesting. Although, I don't think it is practical. I just don't have the time to invest in something like that.

I doubt my next LSD trip will be anytime soon if ever. I really don't like being high for 14 hours or however long it lasts, but if I do it again, I will most likely try something like that. Hopefully I'll be able to see what I saw again.

[jinydu]

See my previous post:

"it causes the brain to perceive things that are not there"

[bo198214]

Looks like jinydu takes the "mindless repeating" drug.

[Nick]

Looks like jinydu takes the "mindless repeating" drug.

Looks like Bo is taking the "I'm gonna pretend like the logic you just pointed out doesn't exist, and pretend I'm still winning" drug.

[thigle]

irockyou you rock not ! what jin states (

LSD is a hallucinogen; it causes the brain to perceive things that are not there. So no, it is not a genuine 4D experience; it is just the brain malfunctioning.

is just a supposition, it has not much to do with logic, actually it is flawed.
that statement is like from government drugWar-brainWash pamphlet on 'drugs'.
i am rather sure jin or you never had an acid, which is cool and perhaps good for you both, but licking honey through glass aint tastin sweet, so don't preach on unknown.
actually, it is not a hallucinogen per se, it rather is perception altering.

and it is off topic to state that it couldn't be 4dimensional experience because of being drug induced. however, it seems, jin doesn't admit even the sober version, it simply is unbelievable to him (or if you changed your mind meanwhile, i am sorry).
coz if it is experientiable at all, then it's irrelevant whether it's drug induced, or dance-induced, or yoga- or dream- or software- or study- or just good ol straight awareness-induced.

[bo198214]

Looks like Bo is taking the "I'm gonna pretend like the logic you just pointed out doesn't exist, and pretend I'm still winning" drug.

*lol* what drug?!

Hey irockyou, for the case you didnt realized. Jinydu stated that it is a hallucinogen and thatswhy it can not be a genuine 4D experience. I dont see any logic in it. And it does not become clearer by repeating this statement. So 1. do you see any logic in it and 2. did it become clearer by his repetitition?

[duraultra]

Whether it's a hallucinogen or not doesn't matter...so his logic doesn't make sense. Hell, it might not have even been 4d for all we know. But regardless, it doesn't matter how I experienced it. Fact of the matter is, I did. And what he said I understood from the start and I think everyone else did too. Like I said, it doesn't really matter...if it does please correct me. And that's it.

[jinydu]

It does matter. I think my logic was quite clear:

1) Hallucinogens cause the brain to perceive things that don't really exist.

2) LSD is a hallucinogen.

3) Therefore, perceptions that occur under the influence of LSD do not correspond to things that actually exist, or at the very least, the fact that LSD was involved casts serious doubts on claims that said things actually exist.

This argument is similar to the argument for why one should be very skeptical that what one sees in dreams has any basis in reality.

Furthermore, do you have any objective evidence that hallucinogens, or what you call "perception-altering" drugs actually enhance perception? Improved results on eyesight exams, for instance?

[duraultra]

Jinydu,

I'm still not convinced that it does matter. First of all, what does this mean:
"the fact that LSD was involved casts serious doubts on claims that said things actually exist"
Which claims are you speaking of? I never claimed to actually have seen in 4D, if that's what you meant. But because I'm not entirely sure what said things are, I won't jump to conclusions.

And because I never claimed that I actually saw 4D (all I was saying was that I maybe saw something remotely similiar to it, something that was definitely out of the ordinary in terms of 3D), it doesn't matter. I disagree with your statement regarding LSD to cause the brain to perceive things that don't exist. Although it is true to a very high extent, what I saw did in fact exist, but was merely distorted, which was blatantly caused by the drug. Therefore the chair, and seeing it in the incredible way I did, did in fact correspond to things that actually exist. So what I saw, may or may not have been a rough guess at what 4D is. I admit more than likely it was not, but I do not think it was impossible, and I do very much think that the distortion definitely corresponded to the chair, which actually exists.

Also, I don't believe I ever said LSD "enhances perception." It ALTERS perception, and there is no doubt in that. Also, perception doesn't have much to do with how well you score on eyesight exams. Perception comes from many other things besides sight. But in the long run, I do not think LSD makes my perception any better, that is ridiculous. It does cause me to see things I normally wouldn't though, which is why it is interesting.

[PWrong]

There's no reason why your mind would try to calculate what you would see from a 4D perspective. You just saw the chair, and you were thinking about the chair, so your mind took everything you know about the chair and meshed it together into a single distorted experience. It's possible that this might just happen to be the same as a real 4D experience, but unlikely.

First of all, what does this mean:
"the fact that LSD was involved casts serious doubts on claims that said things actually exist"
Which claims are you speaking of? I never claimed to actually have seen in 4D, if that's what you meant.

What you did say was that what you saw may have been the same as real 4D vision, even if 4D doesn't actually exist.

Suppose you had seen an alien instead of a 4D vision. Your claim is equivalent to saying: "I know I didn't see a real alien, but what I saw was similar to what a real alien would look like, if they exist." The problem is that a real alien might in fact look completely different.

[Nick]

Looks like Bo is taking the "I'm gonna pretend like the logic you just pointed out doesn't exist, and pretend I'm still winning" drug.

I WASN'T TALKING ABOUT JINYDU (though I do think he's on to something with his point), I'M TALKING ABOUT MINE. You know, the one everyone ignored?

You forgot my second point; just because you see every 3d angle of the chair, even if both inside and outside, you still didn't see 4 dimensionally. 4 dimensionally would have been a completely different angle altogether; one that you have never experienced before. Which is impossible with our limited 3d physiology. I'm not accusing you of declaring that you saw the fourth dimension, but its definitely not more likely; it's more along the lines of impossible.

[thigle]

jin wrote:

It does matter. I think my logic was quite clear:

1) Hallucinogens cause the brain to perceive things that don't really exist.
2) LSD is a hallucinogen.
3) Therefore, perceptions that occur under the influence of LSD do not correspond to things that actually exist, or at the very least, the fact that LSD was involved casts serious doubts on claims that said things actually exist.

This argument is similar to the argument for why one should be very skeptical that what one sees in dreams has any basis in reality.

Furthermore, do you have any objective evidence that hallucinogens, or what you call "perception-altering" drugs actually enhance perception? Improved results on eyesight exams, for instance?

ad1) stop repeating nonsense unless you inform yourself. there are literally hundreds of books on mind-altering substances, from hype-shit to academic studies. you should also coompare literature from before the time when things like LSD were MADE illegal and after. you would find that while legal, shitloads of research in controlled conditions, state-funded studies, all found positive effects in practice. more than 100.000 people were administered psychedelics, and it helped majority of them to discover what they would never see otherwise.

that some fascists(USA executives) made exploration of the innermost essence of our being - i.e. consciousness, illegal, is just unfortunate.
also, please realise that brain does not perceive anything !!! it just process dataflow.

ad2) again, LSD is not hallucinogen as such. one might consider datura, or DMT, or psilocibin to be hallucinogenic, but surely that is not accurate with LSD. so stop claiming what's just unfounded opinion and be rational this time.

ad3) that's nonsense and off-the-point. usually people who never tripped believe and even try to force on others, that when tripping, one sees 'what's not there', or 'what doesn't exist'. that's a complete misunderstanding of what happens. the thing is that on LSD, one knows that if one sees a 'purple fluffy elephant', it is real-as-imaginary, i.e. it is JUST perception. the point is that experience was actual.

there seems to be a semantic problem: you use 'exist' monomodaly: for you just one kind of existence is existence (which i think you confuse with a modality of reality). but what about your dream perceptions ? do they not exist ? they surely do ! they exist-as-imaginary, which is different from existing-as-perceptual, or existing-as-physical. but it's not more or less.
what counts is the awareness of experience, not the medium-modality.

ad evidence of perception-enhancement) of course jinydu. i am not here to provide you with list of references so that you might feel comfortable that it was written by some academics that surely are truth-tellers in your worldview. but sharpened perceptions (and not only visual) are one of the most commonly listed effects (often among the very mild) of LSD. if you check 10 books on acid in your library, prolly 8 of 10 will mention this simple effect. it has been explored by hippies, docstors and army for quite some time now.

your visual resolution gets multiplied. what seemed a pixel before is 1000 of swirling spins. the color range gets infinite iridescent gradients. the most soft sounds might roar, and infinite sound-planes are co-present. time-perception is strongly often altered, so moments might stretch heavily and much more 'frames' of experiential flow can be noticed.

i don't really understand why you are so imagination-unfriendly.

[houserichichi]

...and I quote...

LSD (lysergic acid diethylamide) is one of the major drugs making up the hallucinogen class of drugs. Hallucinogens cause hallucinations—profound distortions in a person’s perception of reality. Hallucinogens cause their effects by disrupting the interaction of nerve cells and the neurotransmitter serotonin. Distributed throughout the brain and spinal cord, the serotonin system is involved in the control of behavioral, perceptual, and regulatory systems, including mood, hunger, body temperature, sexual behavior, muscle control, and sensory perception.

Under the influence of hallucinogens, people see images, hear sounds, and feel sensations that seem real but do not exist. Some hallucinogens also produce rapid, intense emotional swings. One of the most potent mood-changing chemicals, LSD, was discovered in 1938 and is manufactured from lysergic acid, which is found in ergot, a fungus that grows on rye and other grains.

(in the journal of psychopharmacology 27 May, 2006)

The psychological effects of psilocybin, which are similar to other classical serotonergically mediated hallucinogens [lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD), mescaline, and N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT)], include significant alterations in perceptual, cognitive, affective, volitional, and somatesthetic functions, including visual and auditory sensory changes, difficulty in thinking, mood fluctuations, and dissociative phenomena (Isbell 1959; Wolbach et al. 1962; Rosenberg et al. 1964).

LSD was made illegal in 1967 in the US.

[bo198214]

I WASN'T TALKING ABOUT JINYDU (though I do think he's on to something with his point), I'M TALKING ABOUT MINE. You know, the one everyone ignored?

You forgot my second point; just because you see every 3d angle of the chair, even if both inside and outside, you still didn't see 4 dimensionally. 4 dimensionally would have been a completely different angle altogether; one that you have never experienced before. Which is impossible with our limited 3d physiology. I'm not accusing you of declaring that you saw the fourth dimension, but its definitely not more likely; it's more along the lines of impossible.

Ok, irockyou especially for you:
What criteria do you have for "seeing 4d"? None. By this argumentation no description would be a proper 4d seeing.
Consciousness is different, for example the 3d perception of a bumble bee would quite differ from a human 3d perception. Nonetheless both are valid 3d perception (unfortunately cant the bumble bee describe its perception in human understandable form, perhaps exactly because the perception are so different at all; this relates all to the subjectivity vs objectivity problem).

So if I have to judge whether it is real 4d perception, I would ask for the ability to manipulate 4d things and movement in 4d space (like in my 4d building blocks game). Because this possibility is not given with the experiences of duraulta, one have to rely on more unreliable things like seeing all points objects at once or so. There is no real/objective/true/proper/genuine 4d perception, everything we can measure is the ability solve 4d problems.

[Nick]

My criteria for seeing 4d: Seeing 3 different perpindicular axes, perpendicularly along a fourth axis. Just because a creature from flatland can see every 2d angle of and inside a 2d object doesn't mean he saw 3d. It just means he saw and was able to comprehend a bunch of different perspectives at once; what he didn't see was the actual 3d perspective.

By this definition, seeing 4d is impossible, unless you are in a 4d world and have a 4 dimensional anatomy.

[bo198214]

and what means perpendicular, when you not see one picture but several at once? How would you anyway define seeing perpendicular axes?

[Nick]

Seeing multiple pictures at once is not perpendicular.

Intersecting at or forming right angles.

It's not complicated.

[bo198214]

come on rocky, thats the same but in other words.
And what a proposition is "seeing multiple pictures is not perpendicular"? *lol*

[thigle]

@house: why you chose those sources ?