atoms

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atoms

Postby mjjirachi » Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:46 am

if a 4d being can pluck out a 3d being from a 3d world and put it wherever it likes, then what if 2 atoms are occupiing the same space at one time? what would happen?
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Postby Nick » Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:57 am

I'm not quite sure what your asking, but I think it would make sense that the atoms would be plucked out as well.
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Postby mjjirachi » Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:04 am

if a atom is in exactly the same place at exactly the same time as another atom, then what would happen to the atom? after all, it is physically impossible for a 3d being to push a atom into the same space as another atom... :roll:
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Postby Nick » Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:10 am

Two things are possible:
1) if the being pushes it into the EXACT center, with plenty of force, it would cut the atom in half and create a nuclear explosion (sucks for us)
2) if the being pushes it slightly to the side, then it will slip; the second atom would move to the empty space created by removing the original atom (diffusion).
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Postby houserichichi » Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:31 am

Atoms are comprised of nucleons and (for sake of simplicity) electrons. The nucleon is a combination of quarks. Quarks and electrons (or muons or taus) are fermions. No two fermions can occupy the exact same place at the exact same time. If they're at the same place in 4-space then that means that they're also at the same place in our 3-dimensional universe (since 3-space is a subspace of 4-space). So it just can't happen - it's impossible.
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Postby PWrong » Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:21 am

No two fermions can occupy the exact same place at the exact same time.

Unless they have different spins. I can't remember the name of the rule, but isn't it something like "no two fermions can have the same eigenstate"?
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Postby houserichichi » Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:28 am

Pauli exclusion. Indeed, I'm doing some research to come up with a more complete and general response.

On one hand we'll have two atoms A and B that have all the same particles in all the same states at the same time. If this is the case then it is not possible for the atoms to occupy the same place at the same time.

On the other hand we could have A with all particles in state |1> and B with all particles in state |2> as well except one single particle (say an electron) in state |1>. Then that one electron or whatever it is couldn't occupy the same state as the electron in A that it's trying to pair up with.

Continue the last step except switching which particles are in state |1> and |2> in atom B.

Finally we could have A with all particles in state |1> and B with all particles in state |2> so that they most certainly can line up and occupy the same space.

I'm certain we could derive a probability out of that drivel to determine what chance we have that A and B would occupy the same state at the "instant of A being dropped onto B".

As time progressed, however, the states would certainly change so in time interval dt the particles would no longer occupy the same state.

I very well could be wrong but I imagine this is how it would work in a very simplified universe.
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Postby jinydu » Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:10 pm

mjjirachi, it is important to remember that atoms are not hard objects; quantum mechanically, they are just "perturbations" in a wavefunction. Since atoms don't really have a single well-defined position, you can't place one atom on top of another.
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Postby papernuke » Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:59 pm

ok, if you mean if the 4d being put the 3d being where another atom was, then the atoms would probably form into one atom or just destroy it
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Postby moonlord » Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:21 pm

Read the thread first please :|
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"Not only does God play dice, but... he sometimes throws them where we cannot see them." -- Stephen Hawking, late 1900's.
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