Entering Hyperspace

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Entering Hyperspace

Postby ronsdimension » Sat Dec 13, 2003 7:32 pm

1. From your knowledge what would it look like if a space/time ship entered hyperspace, from a view just outside the ship at a reasonable distance.

2. The view just outside of the ship while in hyperspace.

3. And finally the view of the ship exiting hyperspace from a vantage point of a person in space(realmspace) seeing the ship coming out of hyperspace and a view from a point near the ship while it is coming out of hyperspace.

Also, what do you think the space/time ship would look like?

I have my own version, but want to get other opinions.

This is for my comic book “The Back of Tomorrow”.
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Postby Aale de Winkel » Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:43 am

hyperspace jumps are seen everywhere in sci-fi movies.
The view held on this forum though tents to be that one is stuck into one's own space.
Suppose a trionian jumps into tetraspace (as in most sci-fi's) being stuck to trionian vision, he probably won't see much of the space but some realmspace projection. The ship might have the capability of changing zant/kata, and the passengers would then view some other projection of tetraspace. Probably with a different zant/kata he reenters some quite dfferent realmspace though (perhaps an interpretation of "kosmological constant", which are different in the various realmspaces (according to startrek / sliders series))
(Quite remarkable to reenter the same universe as one leaves though, but probably those calculations involves keeping ones tetra-coordinate :lol: )
Probably leaving realmspace and reentering is merely disappearing and reappearing somewhere else, without the theatrics of the scifi-movies.
But unless the realmspace is bent between here and there nothing is gained by some hyperspace jump, since one still need to move the distance. Mapping with our trionian senses, our trionian space in its tetronian enclosure, is not something I see easily accomplished, and will be probably trial and error based, based upon disappearing and reappearing objects :shock:
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Postby alkaline » Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:34 pm

Aale is right - if realmspace isn't bent, going into tetraspace doesn't get you anywhere faster, although it would allow you to hide. Imagine planespace - if it's flat, and something is going a certain speed and jumps into realmspace, they'll still be making the same relative progress as something going the same speed that's still within planespace.

I imagine that before any humans make hyperspace jumps, the jump system would have to be tested many times with inanimate objects in many places to map the topology of realmspace within tetraspace (ie to find the places where realmspace is actually curved, so that a jump into tetraspace would actually benefit you). You could either assume that the theory about space being curved around gravity wells is true, or that the curvature of realmspace in tetraspace is arbitrary. You could decide to have realmspace ripple-folded like some others were talking about earlier - then as you were travelling perpendicular to realmspace, you'd keep intersecting realmspace in points that were very great distances from each other.

I think that if you were travelling along in realmspace and jumped into tetraspace, you'd have your original realmic momentum. Thus, you would have to be travelling pretty fast when you did your jump so that you would keep travelling within tetraspace in order to intersect with realmspace again. Maybe if you exited realmspace on the wrong part of the curve you would shoot into tetraspace never to intersect with realmspace again.

In order to maneuver in tetraspace you would need tetronian devices to do so. A trionian being couldn't construct such a thing themselves, they would need help from tetronians. Trionians simply don't have the ability to move themselves in the extra direction.

Exiting realmspace would probably require an enormous amount of energy. I have no idea what the devices would look like to accomplish this, so you could use your imagination. Maybe the exit from realmspace would look like a giant explosion, release of light, or some other dramatic energy release. Entrance back into realmspace would probably undramatic affair - the ship may just reappear in realmspace.

As far as what trionians would see in tetraspace - if they were in space (and not near a tetronian planetary body), they would see a lot of black expanse, maybe a couple points of light in all of space. Imagine a bionian having a linear view of realmspace - there on any particular line, there are few visible stars that actually would lie on the given line. Within planespace, the bionian has all of the stars confined to his field of view, but not so in realmspace. It would be the same for us in tetraspace - we aren't lucky enough to have the tetronian stars confined to a single realm. But then, that assumes that the tetraspace around us is a "normal" tetronian universe (as in, a universe analogous to our own, with stars and planets and other such things).

btw Aale: use either zant/wint together or ana/kata together, it isn't a mix and match system :-)
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Postby Aale de Winkel » Mon Dec 15, 2003 5:26 pm

alkaline wrote:btw Aale: use either zant/wint together or ana/kata together, it isn't a mix and match system :-)


Oops I goofed, will try to catch up with my tetronian when I'm without a computer (next week till newyear, zant/wint was meant.

If some Tetronian would construct a realmspace device to allow us changing our x[sub]4[/sub] (all that is needed to leave our realmspace) certainly no theatrics would be needed. For a tetronian it would be a reaal simple mattar to do so. (However it would be something like we when we would tear out a piece out of a sheet of paper, so it depends if you consider our realmspace a swock of witing paper or toilet paper :lol: :lol: the theatrics of the first would be more elaborate).
In case of exiting theatrics there would be also entry theatrics, refitting a torn out piece of writing paper ain't something easily done. Given this probably ther are exiting and entry theatrics.

The babylon 5 series offers the notion of gates to hyperspace, or the capabillity on a ship to generate enough gravity.
Our trionian physics already bents space in the presence of gravity, Buck Roger's "star gates" also work on this principle, and I do think given enough gravity one would be able to bent space thus, that the there is near the here. Wheter on then can go through the stargate would mean a change of x[sub]4[/sub], but it would be simular to entering a black hole, which according to a serious dutch physicist (Veltman (iff I remember corectly)) spits the sucked up material out at some white hole.

If a tetronian would be able to construct a realmspace device we trionians could use, he probably would see the density of our space the same way as we see it (quite lossy) and have no problem in making us jump out and in realmsace, so in this case no theatrics at all :idea:
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Postby Keiji » Mon Dec 15, 2003 7:38 pm

if a tetronian inserted a tetronian wedge into realmspace and pushed it around, they could extract a portion or realmspace. to us we would be moved into a completely new world.

they could also replace the portion with another portion but they cannot "create" portions from scratch as each portion is 3-d and they can only make 4-d objects. just like we can make paper but we can't make it infinately thin. to get a piece of infinately thin paper we would have to extract it from planespace.

in fact, they could if they wanted to move my house onto the other side of the planet, or they could even move it to a completely different planet.
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Postby sup2069 » Tue Dec 16, 2003 4:15 pm

alkaline wrote:
I think that if you were travelling along in realmspace and jumped into tetraspace, you'd have your original realmic momentum. Thus, you would have to be travelling pretty fast when you did your jump so that you would keep travelling within tetraspace in order to intersect with realmspace again. Maybe if you exited realmspace on the wrong part of the curve you would shoot into tetraspace never to intersect with realmspace again.



Could you please clarify that part of your paragraph alkaline? I'm having difficulty understanding.
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Postby alkaline » Tue Dec 16, 2003 4:23 pm

Well, imagine planespace, and at one particular point it is curved downwards. Imagine a bionian travelling "up" this curve (it doesn't feel like up to them, it just feels like they're going straight). Then, imagine them leaving planespace right when they reach the top of the curve, before it curves back down. What i was saying was that they would then travel in a horizontal line from that point, while planespace curved downwards. They would get farther and farther away from planespace as planespace curved away even farther. In order to get to planespace again, planespace would have to curve back up at least as high as the point where the bionian left planespace, so that he could intersect planespace again. If planespace didn't curve up again, he'd be lost in realmspace forever. If the he was travelling pretty slowly when he left planespace, it would take a long time for him to meet up with planespace again (if it curved back up). Thus, it would be best if he was going fast, so that he could meet up with it more quickly.
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Postby sup2069 » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:51 pm

I understand now, but that's not how I think it would happen.

After reading your pages on the fourth dimension with pictures, I have always used the upright perspective of plane space. My vision is that when a bionian jumps into using something of a downgraded hyperdrive, he is physically peeled out of his world is now inside ours. Traveling inside our dimension his ship would travel parallel to his curved up world. He could go up, down, backwards or forwards to get to either part of his world. When he, or the computer would reach his destination, the computer could simply cut the engines and he would drop back into plane space. As far as him getting lost into our realm, I don't see it. I am guessing it would be impossible for him to get lost forever. His engines would run out and he would drop back into his plane. I would remember seeing episodes of Star Trek where their warp engines would become damaged while in Warp, then they would simply drop out. Using this, I am guessing that there is a law that would prevent you from staying in a higher dimension. If you ever lost the power that brought you in that dimension ( warp, hyper drive engine ) you would simply drop out back into your world.
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Postby alkaline » Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:55 pm

that's a good way to solve the problem of getting lost, but i don't think it's necessarily true that a bionian would be pulled back into planespace. If that was so, then the hyperdrive would have to continuously fight against the force pulling it back into planespace in order to stay in realmspace.
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Postby Aale de Winkel » Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:38 am

sup2069 wrote: I would remember seeing episodes of Star Trek where their warp engines would become damaged while in Warp, then they would simply drop out.


A warp drive isn't a hyperdrive, traveling at warp n (= 2[sup]n-1[/sup] c) is in violation of Einstein's laws of physics. Not that these are absolute truth, but currently they are not violated yet. (even tachions, as particles traveling back in time are not)

I do see traveling at warp, as some linearization of space folding. supposing simply enough gravity were generated to pull the space in front of us toward us. Traveling at warp is thus within our own realmspace, and so when somthing happens one simplly "drops out of warp".
In startrek there is no indication that traveling at warp is leaving realmspace.

In another episode, Worf traveling back from a bathleth tournament is suddenly caught in some multidimensional rift and ended up shifting from one parrallel universe into an other, and it took some tremendeous work to bring him back to his own realmspace.

So don't expect some hyperdroven object to simply fall back into his own universe.

Han Solo in star-wars (they use real hyperdrives) needed to calculate his trajectory, certainly exit and entry point into realmspace are factors.

As Alkaline already stated, I think that the gravitational pull of realmspace into the fourth direction is too puny, to pull an object back. Do you experience the gravity emerging from a sheet of paper :?: :lol:

Traveling the omniverse ain't easy :!:
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Postby sup2069 » Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:07 pm

You sure do know your episodes aale :wink: . I forgot about warp only warping space inside our own dimension. I hardly watched enough of star wars, but your right though about the han solo calculating his trajectory. But there is one thing that puzzles me, I have a Star Wars encyclopedia book. I looked up and read on the hyper drive last night ( I don't have the book with me right now) and it was saying that while in hyperspace the course must be exact and precise. If not the ship could collide with a planet's shadow possibly 5 light years out. If that was true then, that wouldn't be exactly leaving our dimension right? Jumping into another dimension should void you in colliding with any realmic object in space.

I will write, or scan the page from when I get home.
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Postby Aale de Winkel » Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:16 pm

sup2069 wrote: If not the ship could collide with a planet's shadow possibly 5 light years out. If that was true then, that wouldn't be exactly leaving our dimension right? Jumping into another dimension should void you in colliding with any realmic object in space.


It might well be that the tetronianlight casts some kind of shadow of our universe some 5 light years out. I haven't that encyclopedia, and note that it was also written by some story tellers.
the whole star-trek sequence is also full of mishaps, the now airing "Enterprise" has modern rigged Klingon's but is timed prior to the original series with more human faced Klingons. The Voyager race of humanoids "Ocampa" can't exist, simply because a couple can have only one child, which mens population decrease.
All I'm saying, don't take existing Sci-fi as gospel. They certainly make interesting quotation of several ideas. :twisted:

I hope you can find means to upload that hyperdrive section of that encyclopedia 8) Personally I think one can find all sorts of things when in hyperspace, even rogue trionian planets some space-ball kicked into hyperspace :lol: (one can't calculate for those :shock: )
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Postby ronsdimension » Fri Dec 19, 2003 2:11 am

Anyone remember the Star Trek Voyager episode where they were trying to achieve warp 10- transwarp they called it. And when they finally did it the ship appeared to be everywhere in the universe at the same time. Sounds like they were in some kind of hyperspace to me. If they were in every part of the universe, I think that they could come back into realmspace at any point in the universe.

Also, what if a ship had the ability to “navigate” hyperspace? It wasn’t just hit the hyperdrive and hope for the best, but you could actually drive the ship in hyperspace and come out into realmspace at any point (in space and time) that you wanted to.

Another movie note: In D U N E, they traveled by “folding space” they were not moving and all of a sudden they arrived at their destination. They called it “traveling without moving”. What kind of drive system would be used here?
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Postby Aale de Winkel » Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:33 am

Though Admiral Riker traveled in some Q-time-distorted episode at warp 13, that Voyager episode suddenly had warp 10 as the ultimate limit. At warp 10 I think the story held that the universe was shrunk to a point, and one was present everywhere. Could be viewed as entering hyperspace. Paris had a hell of a time to get back to the enterprise, and formed with Janeway a family of slug-like creatures ((supposedly our future) So not healthy to travel at 2[sup]9[/sup]c :lol: )

As said, in order to avoid collision with objects floating around in hyperspace, one needs to stay at the helm (or have a computer do do so :lol: )

Also in a voyager episode a humanoid race could fold space, they stood at some platform and ended up at some other planet. Linking it with Einsteintonian physics I would say one need to generate enough gravity to bend space appropriately, the same principle was used in the Buck Rogers series where they travel through stargates. :!:

Many ways to travel the omniverse, yet another "Instantaneous Translocation" :wink: (DragonBall (animation series))
Last edited by Aale de Winkel on Sat Dec 20, 2003 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SS

Postby sup2069 » Sat Dec 20, 2003 6:04 am

Finally got my scanner up!

Cover:

Image

Hyperspace:

Image

ronsdimension wrote:

Also, what if a ship had the ability to “navigate” hyperspace? It wasn’t just hit the hyperdrive and hope for the best, but you could actually drive the ship in hyperspace and come out into realmspace at any point (in space and time) that you wanted to.



Star Wars would be your answer!


EDIT: It just so happens I have a Star Trek Encyclopedia as well. ( Sci-fi junky ) Ill scan that page about transwarp ron. The borg had that technology. But they used transwarp conduits in which star trek voyager had trouble at first integrading into there ship. Its been 3 years since I watched the full series. I loved that show!

Cover:

Image

Transwarp ( Warp factor 10 )


http://strike9.com/file.ashx?path=%2fsup2069%2ffullsize%2fwarp10.JPG

Warp Chart Comparison:

http://strike9.com/file.ashx?path=%2fsup2069%2ffullsize%2fwarpchart.jpg
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Postby sup2069 » Sat Dec 20, 2003 8:03 am

Aale de Winkel wrote:
Also in a voyager episode a humanoid race could fold space, they stood at some platform and ended up at some other planet.


Decided to type this than scan it.

Folded-space transport. Technology by which an object of almost any size could be transported across incredible distance almost instantaneously. The Sikarians used this technique in their spatial trajector, which permitted instantaneous travel across distances as great as 40,000 light years. Episode "Prime Factors" VGR

trajector Advanced technology developed by the people of Sikaris, permitting instantaneous folded-space transport across distances as great as 40,000 light-years. Voyager's personnel attempted to obtain trajectory technology. Unfortunately, the Sikaria's system was totally incompatible with Federation technology because of the use of antineutrinos as a catalyst in the space-folding process
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Postby Aale de Winkel » Sat Dec 20, 2003 11:44 am

those encyclopedia of yours are certainly an omission in my own library.
I held the warp-factor for a simple logarithmic scale (hence my 2[sup]n-1[/sup]c (my brother mentioned this at one time to me))
Obviously somenoe, sucking his thumb, simply whipped up some numbers, I can't find any logic in them other then an increase in numbers :lol: Warp theory gone to the pseudo-sciences :lol:
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