AI, Psychedelics, cyberjack

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AI, Psychedelics, cyberjack

Postby swirl gyro » Fri Jul 16, 2004 1:02 pm

This should properly go in "a way we could interact with a 4D universe", but I wanted to be more focused here.

Information/perception technology is the only way to go.

I'm not too concerned about humanity, artificial intelligence will inherit the Earth anyway. Theoretically, it's pretty simple to set up a 4D "virtual" world. As long as my robot descendants can percieve such a world and tell me stories about it, I'm happy.

Except that I want to see it myself. Psychedelics sound essential. I mean, I'm sure you can reprogram your mind to some extent without drugs, via meditation & whatnot. But, to percieve even the simplest 4D shape accurately, with 4 perpendicular axii... I think that takes massive reprogramming, meaning repetitive structured trips on hardcore psychedelics, probably with a good deal of hypnosis.

Eventually, I'd wanna see the computer generated worlds, of course. Not just what I can generate in my own imagination. So, that would take the standard sci-fi cyber-jack. But, I don't know precicely how such a thing would work. If you've got a binary signal pulsing directly into your brain (which part?) 24/7, and You know the rules by which it translates into the virtual world, and you get regular doses of a powerful hallucinogenic, and you're well and properly hypnotized, will your mind learn to translate fluidly?

I guess the main reason I'm starting this thread is to discover my misconceptions, and find out what else I might need or what else might be useful to get the job done. If there is anything seriously flawed with my thinking, please point it out, sucess is unlikely or impossible on false assumptions.
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Re: AI, Psychedelics, cyberjack

Postby pat » Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:08 pm

swirl gyro wrote:Eventually, I'd wanna see the computer generated worlds, of course. Not just what I can generate in my own imagination. So, that would take the standard sci-fi cyber-jack. But, I don't know precicely how such a thing would work. If you've got a binary signal pulsing directly into your brain (which part?) 24/7, and You know the rules by which it translates into the virtual world, and you get regular doses of a powerful hallucinogenic, and you're well and properly hypnotized, will your mind learn to translate fluidly?


Well, eventually I'd like to see Saturn. In the meantime, I'm stuck looking at two-dimensional images of a three-dimensional planet. Fortunately (or not) for me, I've been seeing two-dimensional photographs of three-dimensional objects for all of my life. I have developed an ease with interpreting them, as I'm sure you have. It's only taken practice... not psychadelics.

I'm hoping that picturing the 4-D worlds from the "photographs" the AIs send back will just take practice, too.

But, now you've inspired me... I had started work many years back on some random city generation stuff to render backdrops for some animations that I wanted to do. I never quite finished it all. But, now.... now I want to write the n-D version....
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Postby PWrong » Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:24 pm

I'd have to agree with you that a virtual world is the most likely way we could experience 4D. Even if we could interact with a real 4D universe, our 3D bodies couldn't survive in it.

It might not be neccessary to reprogram our brains entirely. If we changed the input to our brains from our eyes, we might be able to adapt to a 4D environment. There are a few reasons why I believe this is possible.

Our eyes only focus on one thing at a time. It's a bit like a computer screen, but in reverse. The information from each cell in the retina is sorted so that the brain deals with each spot of light in order. It works so fast that it looks like you're seeing everything at once. If you had 4D eyes, you'd still get information from each cell in turn.

It would probably take a lifetime to adapt to such a drastic change of environment once we're used to ours, but perhaps if we plugged a baby into a virtual 4D world...

Of course, certain drugs might be helpful in adapting to a different system, but I doubt those drugs would be specific to the 4th dimension. You might use hallucinogens to help the mind become accustomed to odd shapes and visions, or maybe a different type of drug to help the brain undergo the change, or even wipe it clear of the old way of proccessing visual information.

I doubt a 4D vision would be similar to any hallucinogen. Although I've never had one, I think hallucinations are mostly the result of imagination and random brain activity, heightened by the drugs. The imitations I've seen in drawings are usually rainbow coloured spirals or fractals, and sometimes monster-like creatures or large symbols. You don't really interact with a hallucination, and you don't really think about what's going on either. It wouldn't help you to understand 4D shapes, which requires the mathematical part of the brain.
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Postby swirl gyro » Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:59 pm

PWrong, you can interact with halucinations, I've done it. What I'm actually looking for is a drug that makes my brain more like a babies brain. The drug would not be specific to 4D, it just makes your brain learn new tricks easier. The input, like from a cyberjack, or your own imagination, focuses it on 4D.

I just... I'm not sure if it can work. I've been trying, and I've had some interesting effects... but mostly it's just my brain creating a sensation, and then labeling that sensation: "this is 4D". It's usually touch, and it's thus far been inacurate... it's been more of a 3D texture that shifts around a lot.

You definitely need the mathematical part of your brain, and I'm hoping certain drugs will help that to function, rather than hinder it.
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Postby RQ » Sat Jul 17, 2004 6:16 am

I'm not too concerned about humanity, artificial intelligence will inherit the Earth anyway.


This is about as far as I got with her post when I stopped reading, can anyone elaborate?
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Postby elpenmaster » Sat Jul 17, 2004 6:19 am

i dont think that it would be that hard to visualize 4d.

i have imagined visualizing 4d, its not the same, but it helps

the only reason that you cant visualize 4d is that you dont know what it looks like

actually, theres a chance that you have visualized 4d before, in a dream, but you forgot that dream.

when seeing in 4d, you see a 3d realm (like when in 3d we see a 2d plane) so you see all parts of a 3d thing at once!

i believe there was a thread on this before. . . :P
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Postby swirl gyro » Sat Jul 17, 2004 6:43 am

RQ wrote:
I'm not too concerned about humanity, artificial intelligence will inherit the Earth anyway.


This is about as far as I got with her post when I stopped reading, can anyone elaborate?


Um, what about my post made you stop reading? I mean, that particular line is just something I believe... was it offensive in some way?
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Postby swirl gyro » Sat Jul 17, 2004 8:25 am

elpenmaster wrote:i dont think that it would be that hard to visualize 4d.

i have imagined visualizing 4d, its not the same, but it helps


To me, imagining and visualizing are pretty much the same thing, except that you can imagine touch and other additional senses. And, you can imagine... relationships, that have no direct/accurate sensory representation, like 4D.

*Percieving* 4D does not have to be hard, but I think it will be hard for humans because we're not designed for it (yet).


elpenmaster wrote:the only reason that you cant visualize 4d is that you dont know what it looks like


But I do know how it *should* look. I know enough about 4D (and other-D), that I will definitely know it when I see it, er, percieve it.


elpenmaster wrote:actually, theres a chance that you have visualized 4d before, in a dream, but you forgot that dream.


Well, that's not much use to me, so there's no point talking about it... unless I can acess buried dreams via hypnosis.


elpenmaster wrote:when seeing in 4d, you see a 3d realm (like when in 3d we see a 2d plane) so you see all parts of a 3d thing at once!


Yup. Actually, it would be quite useful to percieve a world in it's native dimension, rather than a projection. When we have the tech to generate immersive worlds, here's how I intend to set up my visual situation: A (hyper)spherical field of finite radius around my "body", which I percieve in the native dimension (I can see my bones). At the surface of this field, I see the projective world (and I see in all directions away from my body). I presume, where the surface of my visual field penetrates the ground, I will see blackness, because there is no light. Speaking of no light, I'm not sure what kind of coloring system I'd use for native-vision... light doesn't apply.
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Postby RQ » Sun Jul 18, 2004 5:51 am

No it's just stupid.
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Postby elpenmaster » Sun Jul 18, 2004 6:09 am

please everybody stop saying that it would be hard to visualize 4d. as long as the right neurons are stimulated, you will see 4d. it shouildnt be too hard. :x
:lol:
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Postby swirl gyro » Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:34 am

elpenmaster wrote:please everybody stop saying that it would be hard to visualize 4d. as long as the right neurons are stimulated, you will see 4d. it shouildnt be too hard. :x
:lol:


I doubt it's a matter of "the right neurons"... it's probably more like "the right brainwave pattern", or something. Anyway, "hard" is relative. Just shift into low gear if you need to go up hill.
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Postby PWrong » Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:30 pm

PWrong, you can interact with halucinations, I've done it.

Exactly what kind of hallucinations are we talking about here?
How do you know you were really interacting with it? Maybe that was part of the hallucination... :?

In terms of the physical nature of the senses, it should be easy for a sentient being to see 4D, as long as the information itself is 4D and you can interpret the information.

Your imagination is based on your experiences in real life. That includes dreams, visualisations, and hallucinations.

The reason I believe we can theoretically see in 4D is that a computer can do it. That shows that it's possible to process 4D information using an object that only exists in 3D.

We could place a simple AI into a virtual little man in a virtual 4D environment. Just like the AI in a video game, no futuristic technology required. Now, for a human to play this 4D video game, we first need a controller that translates from your hand moving in 3D, to the little man moving in 4D. That's the easy part. We also need a way to get 4D information into our 3D minds.

There are several ways we can do this. We can project the information and get complicated little diagrams on an ordinary screen. There's simple games on the internet that already do this. There's one where you fly around in a hypercube and bounce a glome around at http://www1.tip.nl/~t515027/hypercube.html and also a 4D Rubix cube, at http://www.superliminal.com/cube/cube.htm (I've nearly solved it! Just one more layer!)

We can never make a complicated 4D game like this, because it's much harder to project a glome or a cubinder than a tetracube. So we need to change the information after it hits our eyes.

The thing is, first we need to know exactly how our brain turns the 2D map of photons into a single brainwave pattern, then picks out the important bits. It might not be too long before we can understand this.

Once we have a stream of 4D visual information going into our brain, we have to learn to interpret that as 4D, and not as scrambled up 3D.

To do that, we have to interact with the virtual 4D environment, run around and bump into things. We need a 4D equivalent for each of the 5 senses. Fortunately, sight is the only one really difficult to translate. You can only learn with reward and loss. It doesn't have to be real pain, provided you have a clear idea of what's good and bad. Eventually, it should be like second nature. :)
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Postby elpenmaster » Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:56 am

PWrong wrote:Once we have a stream of 4D visual information going into our brain, we have to learn to interpret that as 4D, and not as scrambled up 3D.

well, if we saw the way 4d people see things, we would see in 3d, see a realm, rather than a plane as we do now in 2d. so seeing a realm probably wouldnt be mixed up with scrambled planes.

this might be the next big thing, like cell phones were :lol:
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Postby PWrong » Tue Jul 20, 2004 5:30 pm

Well, not scrambled up planes exactly. Since we only focus on one thing at a time, we translate the 2D input into a 1D sequence. There's no problem with translating a 3D input into 1D, except that our brains would interpret that as 2D input. We would see a random 2D splodge, or our brains just wouldn't be able to cope, and we'd see nothing. There's no way we'd immediately realise we were in 4D, just like we don't realise we're in 3D immediately we we're born.
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Postby RQ » Wed Jul 21, 2004 5:15 am

Yes, if our brains get reprogrammed, then we would see the 4th extended spatial dimension. The reason we don't is because of the fact that there is no need for it since we live in a 3D world. Otherwise, we would have died out. I'm sure in prehistory, there were many living species, that might have been heading towards a 4D universe visualization, but died out, because it didn't match reality. Don't try to visualize the 4D, it's impractical and time-consuming
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Postby PWrong » Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:15 pm

Yeah, but it's worth it :D
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Postby RQ » Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:25 am

If you can "uninstall" it, then it would be an exilarating experience, but it's not worth it at all.
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Postby Geosphere » Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:17 pm

How would you know its not worth it?
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Postby PWrong » Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:33 pm

lol, there probably wouldn't be much to do in a virtual world. Of course you could turn the whole thing off and come back to the 3D world. Of course, you'd have to live in 4D for years to learn to understand it, and then you'd have to learn how to interpret 3D again, but that would be easy by comparison.

I reckon the first people to venture into tetraspace will be like astronauts, except in the brain. They'd need huge IQ scores and perfect visualisation skills. You know how most people get headaches when we mention 4D to them? These guys would make us look like most people. They would need to respond extremely well in new and unusual situations, and they'd probably have to begin training at a young age.

You would be given complex visualisation tasks, in all kinds of dimensions and different geometries. so that your brain is constantly exercising. The training would involve watching various projections of 4D objects, like the games I mentioned before. You'd have to get perfect scores on them and be able to solve the 4D rubix cube in a minute. Next you would undertake some simple physical tests and games, that you would eventually learn to perform in 4D.

I reckon the first step after the basic training is to send someone into planespace. That would be simpler to visualise, and you could practise for it by living in a trench for a few days. But even though it's easier to visualise, you would still have to wait for the brain to adjust. You would stay in there until you no longer see a thin line with black on either side, but just the line, with no understanding of how thin it is (just like we have no understanding of how trong our vision is). Then when you're used to that, you could go back to 3D and learn to get used to it again as quickly as possible.

Another phase of training would be learning how to control the new virtual limbs you would use in tetraspace. The virtual body would start as similar to our own as possible, but might change as you get more experienced. You could practice being a four-legged being in 3D, having one leg, having wings, being extremely tall and thin, short and fat, with an enormous head, being in no gravity, in an upside down room, being a 0-dimensional point with eyes. All sorts of things.

Finally, you'd be ready for 4D. You would start off thinking that you're a point in empty 4D space, and just watch simple objects flow past. At first, you'd just be seeing random splodges, because your brain wouldn't be adjusting yet. So you start guessing, "tetracube", "spherinder" and so on. Then someone tells you when you're right or not. When you see the same splodge a hundred times and hear "tetracube", eventually your brain connects the splodge with the tetracube that you had to visualise before. You suddenly realise that they're the same thing. Before seeing other proper, you would start with dodecachorons etc... until it looks like a glome. Then the splodges start looking like glomes, spherinders, etc.

It's important to realise that when you first start, it looks like a random splodge because your brain just doesn't know what it's looking at. The photons are coming in a completely different order. So you can recognise the shapes, but you wouldn't have any idea of the position of the object. That's what would take the most time.

Wow, another huge post. I should really get a life. Seems like I'd be a perfect candidate for living in 4D, since I've got nothing better to do in this dimension than talk about it.
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Postby RQ » Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:52 am

Yes, I suppose you could call that rewiring. It is not certain whether the brain evolved to be able to visualize a 3D universe, or just adapts to the situation from the start (which is more likely, since if living things' brains had to keep guessing, by natural selection, what dimension we are in, then this would be most likely, that we adapt, but you never know).

It would be worth it, if you could uninstall the 4th Dimension and come back to the 3rd one. What you would see, you would misinterpret, and you will most likely die, for example fall off a cliff thinking your going to Six Flags Magic Mountain.
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Postby elpenmaster » Wed Jul 28, 2004 6:18 am

this reminds me of an experiment done where they gave people glasses that made them see everything upside down. after a few days, they saw things right side up with the glasses on. then when they took the glasses off, they saw everything upside down again, and had to readjust

they would also probably have the people see 3d things from an extrarealmar perspective first, too
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Postby RQ » Wed Jul 28, 2004 6:23 am

Interesting experiment, what was it called?
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Postby PWrong » Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:36 pm

I heard that people are born that way. Something to do with the way eyes refract the light, so the information goes in upside-down. In fact, you can prove it. Push (slightly) the top-left corner of your right eye. You should see a large black-ish spot in the bottom-right corner. It's because your finger turns off the cells in the top-left part, which is supposed to see the bottom-right corner of your vision. Don't push too hard though, it's probably not good for the eyes.
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Postby Geosphere » Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:47 pm

I remember seeing a film in school about that experiment. It doesnt have anything to do with the way you eye flips the image, more that the brain interprets it as needed.
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Postby RQ » Sat Aug 07, 2004 3:13 am

People are not only born that way, but ARE that way. THe brain flips it the right side up as geosphere mentioned above.
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Postby PWrong » Sat Aug 07, 2004 3:24 pm

That's what I meant. People are that way, because the eye flips the light upside down. The brain simply adapts to the upside down image by flipping it the right way up again. It takes a few weeks to do it, so babies see upside down for the first few weeks.
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Re: AI, Psychedelics, cyberjack

Postby simulacra » Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:11 am

I was wondering if anyone has ever experienced some form of drug induced hallucinations which would support the theory of being able to see the 4th dimension and beings that exist within it?
I'm not as well educated in the sciences and physics etc as the rest of the users on this forum, I had an experience with a drug called salvia divinorum about 3 years ago and have been profoundly affected by it in many ways.
Ever since the "world" that I seemed to be drawn into then, there have been many things that seem to describe the things that happened to me. I watched a documentary called "sacred weeds" last night and although not as intense as my trip, there seems to be a pattern in which everyone who does these feel a part of something greater than what we are.
In my trip I became a part of a "world" that co-existed within ours, i wasn't fully able to view everything as it was new alien territory and we dont have the words to describe properly.
My main question: Theoretically, is it possible that by triggering some part of our brain, or some inner parts of the cells that we use, to see any other level that may exist in our own???
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