The Universe and Infinity

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The Universe and Infinity

Postby jbronson » Tue May 08, 2007 3:47 pm

what is outside our universe? What is it expanding into? And how the hell could u have "infinity" if the universe has limits? I dont need a scientific answer, just thoughts. Or a scientific answer, or whatever. Thanks.
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Postby Keiji » Tue May 08, 2007 10:32 pm

Well, there are a number of ideas about this, one is that the universe is finite, but expanding into an infinite area, another is that the universe itself is infinite.
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Postby Nick » Wed May 09, 2007 1:19 am

There is nothing outside the universe. When I say that, I define "universe" as the collective of all space and time ever known to exist. Therefore, anything outside of the universe is undefined by that definition.

The universe is not expanding into anything; it is merely growing larger.
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Re: The Universe and Infinity

Postby bo198214 » Wed May 09, 2007 8:28 am

jbronson wrote:what is outside our universe? What is it expanding into? And how the hell could u have "infinity" if the universe has limits? I dont need a scientific answer, just thoughts. Or a scientific answer, or whatever. Thanks.


To be finite without borders is no contradiction.
The most common example is to consider the surface of a sphere, which is finite but if you are a 2-dimensional being living on that sphere you can walk and walk and walk and never encounter a border (and you dont notice of course the surrounding 3dim space).

This model taken to 3 dimensions could mean that you can fly into one direction with the result of returning to your starting point after some time.
The space loops back. So you can place finitely many marks at points of the space, such that regardless where you are you have always at least 1 mark in the vicinity of 1 meter (or one light year, take whatever unit you like here).

There is no surrounding (higherdimensional) space needed to describe such a space, though it can be useful (as in the case of the sphere) to assume a surrounding space. But this assumption would be purely philosphical in nature.

You can consider the expanding of the universe that it changes it metrics, for example if you measure the distance to an assumed fixed point in space then this distance increases in time. There is no "expansion into".
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Postby jbronson » Thu May 10, 2007 3:07 pm

thank you.
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Postby houserichichi » Sun May 13, 2007 2:08 am

Consider also that the universe itself is infinite but the visible universe (that which light can have traversed) is finite.
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Postby moonlord » Sun May 13, 2007 6:38 am

If the universe is infinite then time, as part of it, is infinite. Therefore life had all the time in the world to reach us. The fact that it didn't proves that at least time is finite.
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Postby houserichichi » Sun May 13, 2007 2:09 pm

Well if our radius of vision is on the order of 14-15 billion lightyears and the visible universe is isotropic then a being located at the edge of our visible universe would believe that he was centered in a bubble the same size as what we have. That requires that, continuing a geodesic from us to him and then onward following the curvature of space, the boundary of the visible universe extends another 14 billion lightyears, twice as far as we can see. Continue this process ad infinitum and you've got yourself an infinitely large universe. Problem is we can't see past our 14 billion lightyear fog because the light from beyond that place has yet to reach us. We can still have a localized big bang in the "total" universe wherein our "visible" universe was created which explains a) what we're expanding "into", b) why light from things beyond our sphere of vision have yet to reach us (keeping in mind that the "total" universe is expanding along with our visible universe).

I'm not sure if I said that right or not....did it make sense?
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Postby headcircus » Mon May 14, 2007 4:38 am

Hey there.. really great question, I ask it all the time!

I have asked this of myself and I happened to have found this frayed printout from when I was 13. It is just this rambling.. I would sit down and just type and type... and only now I can look back on it and say that in 18 years my philosophy has not changed; only the words (symbols) I choose to express it are more based on some schooling. Granted, i take it where I can get it.

Without something else to compare the universe to, measurements like "above", "outside" and "next to" are impossible. And so the question you are asking is impossible to answer if we view the universe in its traditional context. its the same as asking what was "before the big bang". Neither of these questions are possible to answer because you cannot ask what is next to "everything". Or what is above "everything".

Although, some real thinkers out there think that the universe is not everything, especially in brane-theory. Which means the question CAN be answered if the universe is demoted from "all that is" to, "just another slice of bread".

So...
If you are asking in the context of the universe being what we traditionally think of as "everything we know of", then the concept of "outside" doesnt make any sense.

But if we do what every meaningful philosopher, scientist and inventor has done in the past thousand years; and look beyond traditional viewpoints established by ignorance... then you may come to find that the universe is *not* all that is, and thus can have "outside of" and in fact, it may be the same revelation we have about our earth. That it is not the center of the universe, rather in some random place in some random galaxy.

And so, the universe could be, well... just as random. We are getting obsessed about out "universe" and god might be saying "oh, its just another universe, don't get all caught up in yourself."

But, having said all of that, you find that you are still stuck with what even Brane theory cannot begin to answer. What is beyond all the universes? Where does it end or begin?

So, this is where science breaks down into art. At the fringes of these concepts that seem to defy us are where we cannot use pedestrian logic to explain it. We *could* use math if we knew what the math was, but all we have are the sublime.

At these extremes of thought, the "sublime" is the only way to bridge the gap. (that which seems to exude a sense of awe in ways that are beyond description but strike deep; horrible or beautiful both.)

So to answer your question truly means to go beyond and enter a world that is devoid of math; devoid of science and devoid even of philosophy. It is devoid of all human experience!

The uncomfortable part of this is that the experience cannot be translated into logic or science usually. Thats the sucky part. But, people have these experiences all the time, and although the questions cannot be answered on paper, per se, they can be "felt" and that goes a very long way towards your goal.

That is, until the day comes that we do figure out the math for it all... We all know the answer will be "42" we just don't know the left hand side.
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Postby jbronson » Wed May 23, 2007 3:45 pm

i always thought there were many universes and they were in a "superuniverse" and we cant see them because the light hasnt reached the other universes. like subatomic particles build atoms as atoms build molecules as molecules build compounds as compounds build planets as planets build solar systems as solar systems build galaxies as galaxies build universe(s) as universes build superuniverses as superuniverses build plus-superuniverses.Each has other objects, as a univers has galaxies and stars and quasars, a superuniverse would have more than just many universes, it may have other... forms in it.

its crazy to think that light would leave a star, go through the galaxy's "space"(its boundrys) and enter the universes "space" then travel for a LONG time to exit the universes boundrys(the farthest light has traveled since bigining of time)into the super universe and then into what? A plus-super universe?

Think of the universe as a bubble of traveling light. there are many bubbles(universes) in the prescence of no light (superuniverse).

yea, so blah, let that sit, im done.
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Postby wendy » Thu May 24, 2007 7:44 am

It really does not matter what lies outside the universe, because it isn't going to hurt us, and we ain't going to hurt it.

Seriously, the universe is finite, in every way. It is kind of like the earth is flat: one supposes that one can keep on going forever, rather than comming to somewhere that one has been before somewhere.

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Postby papernuke » Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:54 am

wendy wrote:It really does not matter what lies outside the universe, because it isn't going to hurt us, and we ain't going to hurt it.


what if there is another univers outside our own?and in the universe there's really smart people (or beings) who devised of a way to warp into paralell universes (ours)?
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Postby wendy » Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:16 am

What does that matter? There is no room for it to touch us, nor for us to touch them. Really, really big, does not mean infinity.

One should also note that the earth being essentially flat, does not mean that it is round, or that space itself is just an extension of a point, in the same manner that charge and mass are. There are deep things that sorely pussle me in this way.
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Postby Everynothing » Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:27 am

Everyone has different perspectives about the universe, but if you ask me, I'd say the universe is finite. Just like your body, or any other objects, have an ending. It is quite hard to believe that something can be "infinite", not saying it is impossible, but than again it goes back to thinking, if something exists it must have a beginning and an end. That seems odd to me, because how can you have a beginning? If you take a pencil and examine it, where is the beginning? where is the end? Somehow everything is odd and doesn't seem to make much sense. I'm pretty sure that is why people reflect on religions to "guide" themselves through life.

Edited for spelling.

Also deleted your double post. :roll: ~Keiji
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