Can Any of this be REAL ??

[4dlayman]

I have been reading messages here about life in 2D, how a 1D or 2D being can behave, lots of innovative ideas re: how a 2D being can eat/excrete/move etc. This is all very very interesting in theory and helped me understand the higher dimensions....however, my high school geometry tells me that.....a point has no area, a line has no width and a 2D plane has no thickness. What I am saying is that all 0,1 & 2D things are of zero mass and therefore do not and cannot really exist in real life. So how can anyone say that a 2D being can eat 3D food and be really really full, etc; and how can we talk about how easy it is to kill 2D beings when they will never exist ?
As a lead-in to explaining 4D we must start from 1D and so on. That's great but is it valid to do all these talk about life in 1, 2D etc ?
I guess I am more of a hands-on, touch-and-feel guy....

[alkaline]

you're thinking of 3D mass. Of course something needs width, length, and height to have 3D mass. But, you only need width and length or whatever combination of two measurements to have 2D mass. By "real life", you mean the third dimension. How do you know there's not a "real life" somewhere that consists of only two dimensions?

[4dlayman]

Thanks Alkaline. Yes I am thinking of 3D mass; I am also thinking that 2D stuff can exist in my 3D world (Fred is a picture on my wall). How can there exist a living being of no thickness in my world ?
There may 2D worlds out there that can have 2D mass etc. but all the 2D worlds that I know of and can appreciate are of zero thickness so are totally imaginary. If there are 'real' 2D worlds out there then I don't think we will ever get to know/see them.

[RQ]

Of course interaction between different dimensions is impossible, and the thing is that it would take energy to transform into different dimensions, which will be lost and violate the second law of thermodynamics.

[whiteonriceboy]

do we have any proof of living things in any other dimension?
there is as much of a chance of aliens on pluto as there is 2D characters.
i know that there is no proof that there aren't other rational beings, but what if we are the only ones?

[4dlayman]

I thought different dimensions can interact...in fact, isn't each dimension a subset of the world of the next higher dimension ? If a 2D being can exist in my 3D world then I can interact with it. Trouble is based on our 3D knowledge anything less than 3D cannot be real, let alone alive.

The way I see it, there is no way anything can live in less than 3D. 4D? Sure, and presumably they can do strange things to us too.

[Aale de Winkel]

I thought different dimensions can interact...in fact, isn't each dimension a subset of the world of the next higher dimension ? If a 2D being can exist in my 3D world then I can interact with it. Trouble is based on our 3D knowledge anything less than 3D cannot be real, let alone alive.

The way I see it, there is no way anything can live in less than 3D. 4D? Sure, and presumably they can do strange things to us too.

I must refer once more to that Startrek "next generation" episode where the enterprise encountered those two dimensional beings, traveling home to a cosmic string.
The enterprise "saucer section" got caught into those beings plane, and Troy lost her empathic powers. Once unstuck from that plane Troy regained her powers and sensed hapiness from those beings.
So 2d beings might exist, though for some reason the writers thought that feeling radiate outward into the third dimension so that Troy could sense it. Probably when some kind of communication is to be taken place among the dimension this must be the case, also the enterprise crue had a hard time figuring out a way to make those flatlanders understand that they had to let them go. Guess that tetronians will also have a hard time to figure out a way to modulate some trionian pulse of some kind to comunicate with us!
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[RQ]

Just because they are incorporated, doesn't mean that the dimensions can physically interact, just as 3D cannot be in 2D.

[whiteonriceboy]

If we could interact w/ other dimensions, we would have already, wouldn't we? Do you think that we will soon invent a sort of dimension warp, right after the time warp? I can't see how it is physically possible to interact like that. We would see cross-sections of fourth dimensional beings palling through our three-D plane. And wouldn't we hit 2D objects in their plane, as tetra-spacers would bump into us? Surely we would know if inter-dimensional interaction were possible?

[4dlayman]

I think we should be able to intreract with lower dimensions. The reason we have not done so is because they don't (and cannot) exist as living beings. I think 4D beings, if they exist, can interact with us if they try hard enough. I just do not think that anything less than 3D can be alive. All this talk about 2D mass/life are purely theoretical and are meaningless to me. Aale: sorry I missed that Startrek episode !

[Aale de Winkel]

Aale: sorry I missed that Startrek episode !

Too bad, it might have convinced you that 2d-life might exist, though I agree it is merely a thought up story, of guys who also invented the Ocampa, a humanoid race that can't exist because every couple can have but one child, so is doomed to oblivium because iof decreasing population!
Note that the universe is biggere then out puny corner, so that we haven't encounter something doesn't mean anything. Or to quote Mulder "the truth is out there"but I think we'll never know for sure. currently it is merely a mind bggling thought experiment, just as i don't think that anyone microwaved Schrödingers cat (mixing a few thought experiments )

[RQ]

It is important to see that we have two definitions of different dimensions interacting. First there is an actual higher dimensional object interacting with a lower dimensional object in its own or the other or another dimensional setting. Then we have a higher dimensional object appear in its lower dimensional form (sphere to circle) and have the two interact. Of course the former is not possible, but the latter we must further investigate. We have several other possibilities: a lower dimensional universe with 2D people incorporated in our universe along with our 2D incorporations, with perhaps parallel universes or not, or 2D in the 4th or higher dimension parallel to our own world (just like a skew line). I suppose it would be possible. I suppose that we could prove this if objects appeared out of nowhere and disappeared. Otherwise it's just another proof of independency of the dimensions that forces on higher dimensions don't affect incorporated dimensional worlds, saying they exist if we exist in tetronian space to or not to a tetronian life form. In fact I should just summarize all this nonsense. If higher dimensions are to be able to interact with lower ones, it would have to be in its lower dimensional self at the point of intersection. Now this arises the question of whether there are just the other two dimensions incorporated in our 3 dimensional world (which also proves that 2 dimensional people can exist contrary to my former belief that they would have no volume and add up to nil and be that way) or there are also 2D people, or they are in a parallel universe in the 4th or higher dimension (also makes them incorporated, since the dimensions will all be within the highest one). If it were case A where there was just our 2D infinite sliced incorporations, then we should realize that there would be no effects since the 2D moves along in the parallel dimension or one of the two of its own and if that had any effect, matter and anything with a 3D shape would be unstable, since a pack of those slices might turn around and jump off because of the forces acting on it having effect on a lower dimensional scale. So case A fails. Now if case B was also an incorporation, then the same would happen. This is also proven by why matter cannot exist within itself. I guess that we are fair to say that 3D empty space would also be 2D empty space (ignoring any particle and antiparticle creations). Now if a 3D object went through there nothing would happen. If the 2D slice of 3D empty space, was entered by a sphere, where a circle would appear, then this would be violated except for the fact that empty space isn't matter, but it is still the second dimension, and the sphere a 3D object entering it and making the circle, where nothing should have happened according to our suggestion that 3D cannot affect 2D. This can only mean that the 2D of empty space is a kind of empty that you would think of emptiness of 0 volume such as 2D.

[RQ]

Also, 4d, you miss an important point. If indeed 4D beings could exist, then by your definition we must be goners too. Yes, you can say that they would be in a parallel universe, but that would be only the 5th dimension (cant be higher, since just like a point is always in the 1st dimension away from another point, 2nd from a line, 3rd from a plane, so on) and we wouldn't be able to interact. Bringing a 5th dimension means destruction for 4D and ultimately 3D. Yes, maybe time might be of some interest. But that would still be a different dimension.
Also 2D cannot interact with 3D (and ultimately all different dimensions) since if you bent a triangle in Rieman space then its internal edges would add up to both less than and more than 180 degrees. Obviously bending 2D and calling it 3D has no effect. Besides two perpendicular lines with particles moving toward each other, at the point of intersection they would be both unaffected, proving again that different space is different time.

[blue_bird_96]

Remember .... in Fred's 2D world there is no such thing as full! :wink:

[Aale de Winkel]

Remember .... in Fred's 2D world there is no such thing as full! :wink:

I must disagree, take a circle with a whole in it. Fred can fill that with 2d-liquid. 2d-liquid won't fall of this 2d-glass, since 2d-liquids can't go 3d. So Fred can still enjoy his bevourages.
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