Perpetual motion machine

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Do you believe in perpetual motion?

Yes
16
41%
No
23
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Total votes : 39

Postby wendy » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:34 am

If you have a main line running north, and built a branch line off it, and made that branch loop back and rejoin the main line further south, then you could run trains that always run in the DOWN direction.

Alternately, you could build a line down the hill, so that trains run down in either direction.
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Postby Keiji » Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:00 pm

uhm... How does that make the entire loop downhill? That's impossible to do.
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Postby wendy » Sun Jan 01, 2006 8:24 am

it happens at monto.

W

(the idea relies on up and down having different meanings).
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Postby moonlord » Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:55 pm

Well, as far as i understood from Hawking, a PMM is equivalent to a time machine. Because the thermodynamic time direction is the same as the cosmological and the psychological ones, a PMM (machine that does not increase enthropy) will either have to stay in the same time portion of the spacetime, or will be running backwards in time.

What I didn't understand is Hawking's statement that no lifeforms can exist when the universe is collapsing ('A Brief History of Time', ch. 9), based on the weak antropic principle. Maybe one will explain. Thanks in advance.
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Postby faranya » Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:56 pm

Now, in the opening post you said it would require no energy other than what it created itself...but how much energy could be used to start it? If it was say heating water and using the steam to turn a turbine to start creating energy, could you start boil the water before placing it in the machine so it would require less energy to generate steam? Now, if you took that steam turning the turbine and had it condese to turn a 2nd turbine to creat more energy, could you use outside forces to start the cycle and keep it going until a circit was established?

On another subtopic, how would you tell if it were perpetual? You would have to stand and watch it for all of eternity just to prove it was perpetual. Therfore, you may be able to make one, but never be able to prove it. With that in mind, it seems like a waste of time and energy to create one to begin with.

Looking forward to what you all have to say
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Postby bo198214 » Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:41 am

faranya wrote:On another subtopic, how would you tell if it were perpetual? You would have to stand and watch it for all of eternity just to prove it was perpetual. Therfore, you may be able to make one, but never be able to prove it. With that in mind, it seems like a waste of time and energy to create one to begin with.


Jinydu would say, you have to mathematicly prove it. :wink:
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Postby papernuke » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:18 am

But to create the PMM you need energy, so how could you make a PMM without energy?
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Postby moonlord » Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:25 am

It is assumed you start with finite energy and you want to never remain without it.
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Postby pacecil » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:05 pm

By definition, you DON"T take energy out of a PMM. So an object moving in a frictionless environment, with no energy leaving it will be a PMM. We are surrounded by 10^87 such machines
Last edited by pacecil on Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Nick » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:39 pm

You don't, but nature does.
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Postby batmanmg » Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:38 am

I WILL TAKE A FRICTIONLESS BOWL AND ROLL A FRICTIONLESS PERFECTLY SPHERICAL MARBLE AROUND INSIDE OF IT

VWALA... wait... you know what i would do... create the univers... just put it all together.. its all moving on its own and acording to some since something has to have always existed becuase you can't creat something out of nothing... wich means it would be a forever in motion kinduf thing... if it repeats itself anyway....


ooo i know.. i'll make an enormous protective spherical shell... vacum out EVERYTHING thats inside... and then i'll get two masive objects and push them into rotation around eachother... AND THEY WILL STAY LIKE THAT FOREVER FWA FWA FWA !!!!!!!!!!!
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Postby moonlord » Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:33 pm

Please try not to post rubbish stuff.

batmanmg wrote:AND THEY WILL STAY LIKE THAT FOREVER


False. They send gravitational waves into space that carry energy with them. As the total energy of the system is conserved, the bodies' energy will get less and less, therefore at some time they will collapse.
"God does not play dice." -- Albert Einstein, early 1900's.
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Postby papernuke » Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:45 am

jinydu wrote:
timespace wrote:what about those toy things that have the steel marbles bouncing back and forth...
/----\
oooo


... and that always come to rest eventually.


I played with one for about 5 min., every time, it stopped after a few seconds (maybe I just don't know how to use it :( )
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Postby papernuke » Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:47 am

What the heck is this http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/ma ... skara1.gif? It said it was a perpertual machine but it dosen't look like it.
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Postby houserichichi » Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:47 am

This site says that it's an ancient (8th century) PMM that is a wheel with little vials of mercury attached. When gravity pulls the mercury down in the flask the wheel will start turning and shouldn't stop because the process happens over again when the next flask gets as low as the first flask that had the mercury fall. Get what I'm trying to say?
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Postby batmanmg » Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:05 am

False. They send gravitational waves into space that carry energy with them. As the total energy of the system is conserved, the bodies' energy will get less and less, therefore at some time they will collapse.


wait their energy will become less and less... does this mean that they lose mass? or do they just eventualy seace to have any gravitational pull?

what do you mean by collapse... oh and does that mean that any system of mulitple masses will collapse as well?

if it means they lose mass, or they collapse as in a bridge colapsing, then a huge probleme with any perpetual motion device will be maintaining that gravitational energy, in essence its mass.

and i never post rubbish... just becuase an idea is false due to unknown information it does not mean that it is any less of an idea... that and the reason i post anything on these forums is becuase I want to learn more about what i don't know everything about... and in some cases anything about......
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Postby moonlord » Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:18 am

The gravitational energy of two bodies depends on their masses and the distance between them, and it's negative, because the bodies attract each other. Energy gets less means its absolute value gets more, therefore either the mass product gets bigger either the distance gets smaller. Because mass usually does not pop into spacetime to influence it significantly, it seems the distance is the factor that changes. The distance reduces until they collide. This has been observed in a dual-pulsar system.

Yes, it seems PMM are essentially not working.

Now, by rubbish I meant all those capital letters and punctuation signs. Make your posts more serious ;) Don't take it harshly.
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"Not only does God play dice, but... he sometimes throws them where we cannot see them." -- Stephen Hawking, late 1900's.
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Postby bo198214 » Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:21 pm

moonlord wrote:mass usually does not pop into spacetime

The idea catched you, doesnt it?!
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Postby moonlord » Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:37 pm

I might as well create a religion whose first rule is that no matter shall ever be permited to pop up into spacetime. Really now, does it usually do so? :P
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Postby bo198214 » Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:05 pm

Oh my religion would be opposite.
There will come an event when there a second sun pops into our planetary system. And I would describe in great detail what havoc it would cause.
On the personal level I would predict that there comes a time when a €100 note pops into ones purse. And that you can attract this event by good behaviour. And that the second sun scenario can probably avoided if everyone is brave enough.
Good behaviour and braveness in turn is obeying Gods wishes. And I am Gods only personal speaker.

*mischievously rubbing hands*
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Postby Hugh » Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:58 am

I know that this isn't a perpetual motion machine but I got one of these from a science store as a kid and it has always fascinated me. It's a solar radiometer and it's powered by light. If you put a strong flashlight on it, the paddlewheel really spins fast! Anyone ever play with one of these?

Here is a description of it at: http://www.rainbowsymphonystore.com/solradorglas.html
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Postby bo198214 » Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:06 am

I never had one, but they were fascinating for me too.
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Postby batmanmg » Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:50 pm

is the universe a perpetual motion device? if it was created from the big bang and is going to collapse back into pre big band form and then big bang all over again, would that be considered perpetual?
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Postby moonlord » Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:43 am

I wouldn't consider it. "Never stops" implies infinite running time. However time resets at Big Bang. So the time itself is finite in the Big Crunch - Big Bang theory.
"God does not play dice." -- Albert Einstein, early 1900's.
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Postby bo198214 » Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:21 pm

the time would be finite if it were a close manifold,
which means for a 1dim manifold that it is topologically a circle,
i.e. every thing would repeat after some time.

If time is not a closed manifold you can take your egg timer and cook an egg every 5 minutes. The number of eggs would then exceed any number and hence time is infinite. You can imagine the nearer you come to the big crush the shorter - seen from outside - the time intervals become. But for you all these time intervals have the same length thatswhy the big crush is infinitely away.

The closed time scenario is in this case quite strange, after cooking your 10<sup>x</sup>th egg you suddenly have only just 1 egg and you were doomed to repeat this forever *gg*

What of course would be if time isnt a manifold at all, i.e. have branches etc is just another topic.
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Postby batmanmg » Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:00 pm

wait when the big crunch occurs, theoretically time could restart? but wouldn't that mean that the proceeding big bang would have to creat an exactly the same universe. i disagree with the logic that time resets like its a video game... it may be on a circular scale such as our 365 day year. but even if mankind were wiped out at the end of every year and rebord the begining of the next... small things cuased by mans previous ventures would have changed the universe slightly to creat a new series of events.

but this is irrelivent to my question... which had nothing to do with the bounds of time... what i meant was.. is there any slowing down to the universe? does it loose a little energy throught its existance like a pendulum? or is it in a frictionless existance? In which case it should keep its motion forever, as long as you regard time in the classical sense, as an infinent line.
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Postby moonlord » Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:37 pm

Depends on whether the universe is all there exists. If so, then there is nothing else to influence it. It would just repeat itself. The funny thing time wouls also be repeating itself so you wouldn't remain stuck when all your 10^x - 1 have just disappeared.

Also, the universe wouldn't be slowed down in this case.
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Postby batmanmg » Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:51 pm

so in a sense the natural order of the universe and all its inner workings is like a ppm device... and the reason no other ppm device can work is becuase to creat it you will first have to take away some of nature, and nature wants its stuff back, so it naturaly takes it back every way it can?

the universe, a perpetual motion device, is like a balanced equation, every part is in motion to balance out other factors, and stays in motion because every other part balances out that motion and factors itself, like a tangled web of balances. to creat a balanced equation separate from the universe (a ppm device), you must take away part of the original equation, and therefore destroy its balance.

you first have to cuase the eventual destruction of the universe (meaning it won't big bang --> big crunch --> big bang forever and will eventualy stop existing) to creat a ppm device

so a warning to all would be ppm device inventors... don't do it you'll destroy the universe.
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Postby moonlord » Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:32 am

I'm sorry I don't follow your logic...
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"Not only does God play dice, but... he sometimes throws them where we cannot see them." -- Stephen Hawking, late 1900's.
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Postby batmanmg » Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:40 am

wich part, or all of it?

if we assume the universe has existed forever and will exist forever, then it in itself is a perpetual motion device, its not using any external power, and its not waisting any either.

now you have a closed circut. kinduf like a food web in an isolated eco system. You know where you have animal eating plants, and animals eating other animals, blah blah blah, the circle of life. in almost all circumstances, if you take one/some of those creatures/plants/things away to say start your own separate ecosysteme (meaning it doesn't give anything back to the original ecosystem), then something else is likely to starve. the ecosysteme won't have all the parts it needs to sustain itself, and so eventualy it collapses becuase the animal that ate it isn't getting fed and it thins out, cuasing more animals to thin out, and they all eventualy die. (closed ecosystem here, no migrating and no rapid evolution)

now replace each of those animals with different energies. (i don't really know energy types so i'll list physics stuff anyway) kenetic, potential, blah blah blah, the balanced equations of the physical universe. the same logic applys. if you take parts of the chain reaction away (it doesn't give back anything to the universe) then the universe will analogisly starve. it might not end this time around this big bang cycle (or the next billion, but it will create a tapering off of the universes life.


luckily, all mankind has been able to come up with, are none perpetual motion devices, the energy put in them, and the energy that cuases them to be in motion is eventualy dispersed into the universe. like how friction cuases a pendulum to slow down/stop, that is turned into heat (right? or is that only with solid object friction?) that heat makes the air around the pendulum expand, and so on into the oblivion of space.

was that easier to follow, or did the food web throw you totaly off?

the only way to not cuase the eventual end of the universe, you would have to use parts of the grand equations of the universe that don't matter to the rest of it... like taking away little critters that didn't really have all that much of an integral part in the whole web. i can't think of a good example. i can't think of any type of engergy that doesn't have an integral part in the workings of the rest of the universe. so until one's thought of, then im pretty sure a ppm device is a bad idea.. i like our universe, i don't want it to die.
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