Perpetual motion machine

[Twix18]

your objective is to create a perpetual motion machine. you have any items at your disposal. you must tell where you would beuild it, out of what would you build it... and umm what it would look like.

just in case some one here dosent know what a PMM is, it is a machine that once started will never stop and requires no power other than that which it creates on its own.

[brasileiro]

The only place I can think of that you would be able to pull such a feat off... is in a black hole... since it pulls anything towards its center. Now, this would require no energy on the part of the machine, but it does require the black hole to work. Other than that, you would have to be able to develope a way to make more energy than you put out, without using energy... basically, taking the energy you put out, using that energy to propel the next round on the machine, and amplifying the energy you just put out from the first round... IN which case, is kinda implossible for now... I'll let you know if I make one... lol. I say "impossible" because it may be possible sometime... but for now, there is no way you can make it without losing some kind of energy in the rounds.

[jinydu]

According to the Laws of Thermodynamics, which have been verified many many times, such a perpetual motion machine is impossible. Furthermore, it would violate the Law of Conservation of Energy.

[Twix18]

that sounds like a whimpy way to back down. i didnt ask for veification of it impossability, that i already knew. i asked how you would make one... or the closet thing to it. stop hideing behind other peoples research and think for yourself. reaseach teaches you everything you need to know... but youll never learn anythign you couldntve figured out for yourself.

[jinydu]

If you look at scientific journals, you'll see that researchers are constantly trying to build machines that are as efficient as possible. Currently, the most efficient machines are nanoscale ones. You could try searching for Science and Nature Magazine online for more information.

Yes, in principle, I could, in principle, discover everything that has been learned through research before. But considering the fact that probably millions of experiments have been carried out in the course of the history of science, and that I'm unlikely to live forever, its much more practical to look at existing knowledge.

[brasileiro]

Dude, he's just askin to use ur imagination... gosh

[timespace]

what about those toy things that have the steel marbles bouncing back and forth...
/----\
oooo

[jinydu]

what about those toy things that have the steel marbles bouncing back and forth...
/----\
oooo

... and that always come to rest eventually.

[brasileiro]

I think that's as close as we can get. Other than that, they tried to make one out of batteries... it lasted, but it eventually ran out of energy. The main idea was to create a machine that would recharge itself (ie. create perpetual energy). It did recharge itself, but the charge was greater than the recharge... which let it run a little longer. Nothing closer than those two though... that I know of.

[chickendude]

ok so you have this atom of hydrogen

so you just leave it there and watch
the electron moves perpetually without stopping
i dont know if this counts as a machine but it is perpetually moving
>_>

[quickfur]

ok so you have this atom of hydrogen

so you just leave it there and watch
the electron moves perpetually without stopping
i dont know if this counts as a machine but it is perpetually moving
>_>

Technically, the electron is not moving, it is a standing wave around the nuclues. Although, it is "waving", quantum mechanically-speaking. Quantum mechanics has some pretty strange stuff happening... but unfortunately, this inherent "waviness" of the electron cannot be harnessed as energy without changing its state, so no, you can't build a perpetual motion machine based on this.

[jinydu]

ok so you have this atom of hydrogen

so you just leave it there and watch
the electron moves perpetually without stopping
i dont know if this counts as a machine but it is perpetually moving
>_>

You're probably thinking about either the Rutherford or the Bohr model of the hydrogen atom. Both have since been superseded by Schrodinger's model of the hydrogen atom, and quantum mechanics. In short, you can't really regard an electron as being only a particle; according to quantum mechanics, it also displays wave properties. Specifically, these are probability waves; the value of which at a particular point is space tells you the probability density of finding the electron in that region of space if you aim your microscope there. The model of an electron orbiting the nucleus, analogous to the way planets revolve around a star, had to be abandoned because, among other things, Maxwell's Theory shows that accelerating electric charges emit electromagnetic radiation, causing them to lose energy. Hence, if electrons really were orbiting the nucleus, they would continually radiate away energy, atoms would be unstable, and we wouldn't exist.

[PWrong]

it is a machine that once started will never stop and requires no power other than that which it creates on its own.

I can show you one of those easily. The moon doesn't require any power, and it will never stop.

Unfortunately it's not a perpetual motion machine, because you can't do anything with it. A perpetual motion machine is equivalent to a 100% efficient engine or a workless refrigerator. If you had one, you could power your car by cooling the air around you.

that sounds like a whimpy way to back down. i didnt ask for veification of it impossability, that i already knew. i asked how you would make one... or the closet thing to it. stop hideing behind other peoples research and think for yourself.

Dude, he's just askin to use ur imagination... gosh

Trying to build a perpetual motion machine isn't being imaginative or creative. You're just trying to break the 2nd law of thermodynamics, in order to ruin someone else's work.

However, it is interesting to look at a machine and work out why it won't last forever.

[viralplatipuss]

the universe itself is a perpetual motion machine.

It requires no energy, and never loses any energy



And man is it one hell of a machine

look what it's churned out so far!

[wendy]

Even the universe is not a perpetual motion machine.

It has a past and a future. When the last black hole evaporates into nothing, it is all gone. It just takes a bit longer than a spinning top to stop.

In a sense, it is like an ember in a fire. The heat disappears eventually, and it becomes cold.

[viralplatipuss]

But what about the laws of conservation of mass and energy...

Nothing can be created or destroyed.. thats what i last heard.

I also get told all this stuff about the universe crushing down under its own gravitational force when it stops expanding...

If it all crushes down to a point.. can that point go infinatly small.... then when it gets so small it negatively inverts causing the laws of physics to some what invert also...

then that starts the next big bang and so on....

Or what is more likely to happen?

[wendy]

Apart from mass and energy, there is also enthropy. The second law of thermodynamics says that systems must ultimately enthropy.

The universe as a whole looses enthropy. And when there's none left, there is no order. It is deader than dead.

[viralplatipuss]

ok...

fair enough.

Haven't got to therodynamics yet...

but sounds intresting!

[jinydu]

Apart from mass and energy, there is also enthropy. The second law of thermodynamics says that systems must ultimately enthropy.

The universe as a whole looses enthropy. And when there's none left, there is no order. It is deader than dead.

I think you mean enthalpy. You definitely don't mean entropy since, according to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, entropy (a more precise way of saying disorder) can only increase.

[wendy]

it something like that. been 30 years since i been there, but i know something like that changed in one way only.

W

[blupigan]

a perpetual motion machine is impossible, but what if someone were to make a machine, that used the gravity of the planet its on to power itself.

like a ferris wheel with weights on the ends, made in a way to power itself on the fall.

or if you were in space, and you built a box that charged power every time you hit any one of the buttons lining the inside. then you could shoot a bouncy ball into it and wouldnt it bounce forever.

lol i know these are silly ideas but hey the point of this topic was to use our imaginations.

i know electromagnets dont charge in space since theres no polarity to pull the motor along, but is there a way to create an artificial magnet in space? a big wheel or something, because what if you made an electromagnet hooked up to a turbine charger in space, couldnt you spin in and let it spin and spin and charge power (virtually) forever? it would stop eventually but one guy having to spin a fan every once in awhile would be a small price to pay for infinite energy.

in fact for infinite energy why dont people just hire other people to ride bikes hooked up to turbines? not for ALL our energy needs but im sure it would be better for the environment and there are plenty of people who will take 6$ an hour to ride a bike in a room all day.

or one more thing, i saw a commercial with a hybrid car that charges itself when it brakes. why dont they hook up a turbine charger to the wheels? that way when they cars moving it will power itself rather then when it brakes, so gas could start it up, and from there on out it could be powering itself (not completely but partially) and it would use very little gas.

[eagle512]

First of all, perpetual motion is impossible on earth because of a little thing called friction. One can make moving parts as effiecient as they possibly can, but even then there will be air resistence and some translational/rotational friction.

The bike idea... produces very little energy. however i have always imagined taking power from all the bikes and other machines in gyms and using that as a supplement source. just kind of funny to imagine.

[bsaucer]

I've heard of two kinds of perpetual motion machines:

1. First type: Violates first law of thermodynamics (conservation of mass / energy)

2. Second type: Violates second law of thermodynamics. The so-called "Newman machine" supposedly fits this category.

[eagle512]

I've heard of two kinds of perpetual motion machines:

These machines are consitently classified based upon the law of thermodynamics that they destroy.

If perpetual motion indeed exists, then the current laws of physics would no longer apply. This is not unreasonable, as it wouldnt be the first time in history that this has happened. However, no longer needing a source of energy woul probably end up in world destruction and utter chaos.

[Elle_vated]

Energy can be used in and of itself even if you use the very force you are trying to move away from........Gravity is our FRIEND. and If you can think outside our 3 dimensional box you might find that what pulls down can also be the very thing that propells us up or repels us away, springs out and off of, spins us around, or takes us THROUGH any area of space or matter with the greatest of ease and dillusion of time not by wasting new energy just by making use of the natural energy and resource that we have within, on and surrounding our planet earth. Rotation is the key to ALL and ALL we have to do is use the KEY to unlock the doors to the other dimensions available to us. Our cellblocks need larger and more dynamic playgrounds to play in. So lets all get in our 3-d sandbox and trace a circle back to that future "time" when we thought in terms of COMMON SENSE!.

what ya' think?

Edit by iNVERTED: Removed annoying formatting.

[Keiji]

because what if you made an electromagnet hooked up to a turbine charger in space

Something I've always wondered: Do permanent magnets stay magnetised for infinite time?

Think of this: Put a huge magnet in space, and build a generator around it, that doesn't touch the magnet whatsoever, causing it to be frictionless. Then spin the magnet. Since there's no friction, it would spin forever, right? So that means, magnets don't stay magnetised for ever. If they did, then what I described would create energy out of nothing, which is impossible...

[jinydu]

Something I've always wondered: Do permanent magnets stay magnetised for infinite time?

Think of this: Put a huge magnet in space, and build a generator around it, that doesn't touch the magnet whatsoever, causing it to be frictionless. Then spin the magnet. Since there's no friction, it would spin forever, right? So that means, magnets don't stay magnetised for ever. If they did, then what I described would create energy out of nothing, which is impossible...

So long as the spinning rate is constant, I don't see how you're getting energy out of nowhere. Remember, an isolated, spinning, uniform perfect sphere will continue spinning forever at the same rate (at least clasically).

[Keiji]

The magnetism will induce current in the generator. So if it keeps spinning, and it keeps its magnetism forever, you will be getting electricity out of nowhere.

[jinydu]

The magnetism will induce current in the generator. So if it keeps spinning, and it keeps its magnetism forever, you will be getting electricity out of nowhere.

But will the current stay constant forever? As long as it doesn't keep increasing, energy conservation should be fine.

My 500th post!

[bsaucer]

But if you draw energy from the generator, the coil will send magnetic forces back to the rotating magnet which will slow it down. For every action...