Does God exist?

Discussions about the possibility of consciousness, free will, spirits, deities, religions and so on, and how these might interact with time travel, the Big Bang, many worlds and so on.

Postby Nick » Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:42 am

Will you quit saying that? Someone doesn't decide whether or not to fail. You act as if God is obvious that only an insane man would deny. If it were really that simple, why would anyone choose to fail?
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Postby gerren » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:16 am

Will you quit saying that? Someone doesn't decide whether or not to fail. You act as if God is obvious that only an insane man would deny


Sorry. Have I ever said that? The way I act is the way I act, and if you dont like it then oh well. Im being as fair as possible, and i can say "God" as if he existed because you do too when you try to find some "contradiction" in the bible that only a person who knew the bible or God did not contradict themselves, so then they read the passages so deeply that they convince themselves that the bible/God do contradict themselves. I speak of God as if he is a possibility when i speak in a scientific argument, but i speak of him as if he actually exists in a philosophical/relgious argument.
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Postby Nick » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:28 am

It's hard to tell when you switch between a scientific argument and a philosophical one. The thing is, we're arguing whether or not God exists; so you can't go under the assumption that he does and use it as an argument. That doesn't make any sense at all.
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Postby gerren » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:36 am

If we were arguing against only his existence, then why are you posing arguments about his perfection, omnipotence, etc. (which all point towards the answers religion give)?

The thing is, we're arguing whether or not God exists


So, as I have said before, if we were doing that, then why are you making all of these philosophical arguments about Hitler and trying to prove that a God/Creator exists? That doesnt make sense at all. So when you want to argue his actual existence, then do it, dont extrapolate to religion, ok?
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Postby Nick » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:41 am

I'm not trying to prove his existence. I'm clearly trying to disprove it, by pointing out that the odds of God existing are extremely small, that a Universe can exist without him (and even if we haven't proven that, which I believe we have, it doesn't matter. Just because science hasn't answered something yet doesn't mean religion can), and that the Bible is unclear on moral standards.
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Postby gerren » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:48 am

Just because science hasn't answered something yet doesn't mean religion can


Hey, were arguing on his existence, not religion, remember? So if you want to do this, lay out your reasons and evidence saying why science has proved the universe existing without him.

the Bible is unclear on moral standards


And you say that the bible contradicts itself! Just by that statement you contradicted yourself when you said "The thing is, we're arguing whether or not God exists".
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Postby Nick » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:52 am

And you say that the bible contradicts itself! Just by that statement you contradicted yourself when you said "The thing is, we're arguing whether or not God exists".


How so?

And, what's the difference between God and the Christian religion? I'm arguing that both are improbable.
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Postby gerren » Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:04 am

what's the difference between God and the Christian religion? I'm arguing that both are improbable


Ok, i will accept you changing what you decide to argue about, but please try not doing it again. So, the differnce between God and the Christian Religion is that the Christian religion is a religion, which is centered around man's idea and theory around God. The existence of God is much more simple, as it can only deal with mostly science and probability (when I say science, remember I am using science to make examples of how he "must" exist, and not how he does exist), which do not string into religion, which strings into philosophy ad such.
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Postby Nick » Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:25 am

Ok, i will accept you changing what you decide to argue about, but please try not doing it again.


I'm not intentionally changing anything, I thought we agreed that both religion and God are of the same argument, or at least two seperate arguments that we were talking about.
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Postby gerren » Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:30 am

Ok, but the only thing I feel comfortable arguing about is his actual existence, because we could really ramble about religion all day loooonnnnggg couldnt we??? lol agreed? :)
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Postby Nick » Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:48 am

Agreed :D .
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Postby PWrong » Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:10 pm

And, what's the difference between God and the Christian religion? I'm arguing that both are improbable.

It's much more likely that God exists than that the Christian religion is correct. The only requirement for God is that he is an intelligent entity who created the universe. Christianity requires him to have omnipotence, omnipresence, direct physical interactions with humans, a personal relationship with many people, and a son. They also believe in angels, the devil, heaven, hell, and miracles.

There's a lot of people who call themselves christian, thinking that it's the closest thing to "I believe there's a higher power" or something. If all these people called themselves "nonspecific theists" or something, they would be one of the largest religions.

Maybe we should have a thread specifically about an arbitrary God, and another thread in which we assume a God exists, and argue about the christian religion.

EDIT: It's possible that this was my thousandth post, but I think the one in the ethics thread is more likely.
Last edited by PWrong on Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby papernuke » Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:11 pm

and anyways, if god existed, wouldnt everything in our universe be perfect? and if he were in the fourth dimension or higher, wouldnt all the universes be perfect? even though we cant reach the other universes.
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Postby gerren » Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:21 am

How do you know if the other universes which you cannot reach/experience are not perfect (that was a flawed question). Also, when you use the word "perfect" to describe a universe, what aspects of this perfect universe do you want to include? Tell me so I can know what a "perfect" universe is.
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Postby papernuke » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:15 am

my "perfect" universe is where nothing can die, where for living things, you dont get disease, you get whatever you want, when you want, and you have unlimited of it. if youve seen the simpsons, in that one where homer finds out when the rapture is going to be, and he goes to heaven because he went to this crater place. its like in heaven.

[yay my 300th post]
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Postby gerren » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:30 am

Ok, that makes sense, but are you referring to the Christian God, or God in general (a Creator)? If you are referring to the Christian God, then just because he is perfect doesnt mean that everything in our sense must be "perfect". Our sense of perfection in the the way things are is not the same sense the Christian God's perfection, as the way he created the universe was perfect in his sense (because this universe is his sense of an ideal universe). Another answer I can give you is that its just the way things are, although its not a helpful one huh?

Also, what are your reasons for asking this question?
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Postby papernuke » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:55 am

a normal god, creator, and i dont remember why i asked.
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Good VS God (did someone omit an "O")

Postby Russ1953 » Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:58 pm

Oh is a sorrow, oh is a joy. Life is notorious for making order out of chaos. Bees have their matriarch, Elephants their Alpha Male, subdued people their hope. Take oil, sand and water. Put them in a flask. Shake the hell into it. Set it down, wait, the oil will rise to the top, then the water, then the sand. Consider humans, their need for warmth, stable earth and water. Shake the hell in them, they will seek normalcy. All that is basically good is recognizable mostly. Its deception that haunts humans. Is it evil, good? What context is deception perpetrated. All that is good will coagulate, all that is water will too. All that is earth with settle and flourish. With care these things will flourish. Just remember this, all that have wished for good in a dire moment of need may not have been delivered. Proves nothing pro or con. But, any energy sent by the highest or deepest cries of a soul in distress is energy. There are many good things to be wish upon in the time of need stored in the cosmos. Will yourself to call upon the good, and know when you don't deserve it. Calling upon good for a selfish need is what it is. Calling upon good in a time of true need is honest in face value. At least give yourself the wisdom to know if you truely deserve deliverence. Defy unrequired negative influence. If we live in peace. If we lived it true. Then peace it would not be a word. If we lived peace in its context. Peace would be your part, of you. So carry yourself in generousity, honor, and peace. There is no greater god/good than that which is known of you by your neighbor. True wealth, is those that know you are true. Settle amongst us those of a good spirit and depart those who are not. But, keep a wary eye. This is good, this is god.
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Postby gerren » Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:08 am

Yeah, if God is bullshit. If god is omnibenevolent and omnipotent, then obviously a hell woulndt exist. Would you send someone you love to hell? No. If you do then what does that make you? It makes you a hippocritte and a brute. God is dead, and no one cares. Oh look i said that. Where the frig is the lightning? the power outage? spontaneous combustion? my life in a downward spiral? nowhere. i like that you have love for man and everything, and i also love you as a person, but face it:god doesnt exist. Do you see him? Do you smell him, hear him? No, but you do see trees, man, and you hear them. man made god, not vice versa
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Postby PWrong » Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:16 am

Uh, ok...

Russ, stop posting nonsense. Gerren, you're not making much sense either.
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Postby Nick » Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:11 am

Uhh... gerren, did you just take up an athiest argument? I am thoroughly confused right now :\
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Postby gerren » Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:40 am

Yes i took up an atheist argument and im damn proud of it...although in a month i might be slapping myself in the face and repenting for saying that...lol
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Postby papernuke » Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:34 am

gerren wrote: but Satan/Lucifer


Whos Lucifer?
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Postby gerren » Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:35 am

look him up on wikipedia. lucifer is a supposed fallen angel from heaven who tried to rise up against god and take heaven for himself...satan....idk exactly who that entity is exactly, but it is associated very commonly with the devil :angry:
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Postby PWrong » Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:01 pm

Icon's (Paper Nuke's) post deleted ~irockyou (Nick)

What did you expect? Anyway, he's gone now.
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Postby gerren » Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:50 am

Well...I knew it would be one...but oh well
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Postby itzclay » Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:30 am

In the end, I came to 1 logical conclusion. I am god, and I am arguing with myself.

At first glance, you may think I am crazy, and think I'm special or better than others. But you are also god, and you are also arguing with yourself.

What is god? God is the truth. There is no difference in love and hate. Hate is the absence of love. Darkness is the absence of light etc.

Again, I base this on logic. As has been shown, -1 = 1(I know you put some symbols around 1 of them). -1 and 1 represent the same amount. The -1 however represents the absence of the object, but still represents the same size as 1.

Oddly enough, you can't imagine what 1 is, without knowing what -1 is. It's part of counting, even if you don't realize it. And you wouldn't be able to recognize love without knowing hate. You won't recognize happiness without sadness. You wouldn't recognize life without death.

And this is what the bible references with the apple and the tree of knowledge. Because by wanting to know and understand things, you must see the opposite.

The bible also says we are made in the likeness of god. This is also true. Why? Because you have the ability to control the darkness and lightness within yourself. You also have the ability to learn right from wrong, because you have the ability to look at things from another perspective, and then compare it with if you were on the other side.

And you don't need a preacher, nor do you need a book or any religion to understand this. It's plain as day, right before you eyes. What are the laws of god? Whatever is true.

Some people realized this, and they told others. Other people realized you could control people with it, formed organized religion and manipulated it. The end result however is that people shine away from what is true about religion as a result of when people do bad things in it's name.

Also, I should point out I'm not a Christian, nor do I feel I have any extra knowledge of a god other than what I see and understand.
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Re: Does God exist?

Postby malkuth » Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:35 am

During the course of this discussion you have dangerously strayed into the realm of philosophy.
I would like to draw your attention to a more scientific perspective on all gods and religion in general.

Who is god?
Ancient civilizations around the globe had stories concerning various gods. All of these stories have certain things in common.
For example: all ancient religions have a story about a great flood, they all have stories about a battle between good and evil gods, all of their gods came from the heavens and brought some kind of knowledge with them to share with common people...
To continue: To this day there is not an coherent theory of how the Egyptians built the pyramids. On the gates of the Mayan temple at Machu Pichu there are a number of heads carved into stone (I can't remember the exact number, around 250). All of these heads have facial characteristics of various ethnic groups that the Mayans where never in contact with. In fact, several stone statues that are supposed to represent Mayan gods have a frightening resemblance to an astronaut in a space suit!

Now, if you think outside the box for a moment, I'm sure you will draw the same conclusion that i have. Let's use a bit of Holmes's case cracking principle here. We have 2 possible solutions:

a) God is an all present metaphysical being that created the universe. He is perfect in every way, and lives in an abstract metaphysical place called heaven. He monitors every step of every person in the world and judges them when they die. And there's no sex until marriage. :D

b) Creatures that the ancient civilizations have encountered where not metaphysical in any way. In fact, they where not that different from us at all. They where technologically far more advanced, and had gadgets and transportation that the folks back then couldn't describe with the vocabulary that was available to them. That's why they called them gods, and they called their ships 'fiery carriages from the sky'.

Do you see where I'm coming from?

Aliens. Our ancestors where visited by an alien civilization.
This is an indisputable fact which isn't yet generally accepted because of the implications it carries. People are not yet ready to acknowledge their own insignificance. We like our status quo, and our little games. But that's a topic for another discussion.

The question that bothers me is why would someone travel at least 5 light years just to show some idiots how to light a fire, get into a fight, flood everything and, in the end, decide it's time to go back home, never to return.
Other planes lie beyond the reach of normal sense and common roads

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Re: Does God exist?

Postby Nick » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:02 am

malkuth wrote:Aliens. Our ancestors where visited by an alien civilization.
This is an indisputable fact which isn't yet generally accepted because of the implications it carries. People are not yet ready to acknowledge their own insignificance. We like our status quo, and our little games. But that's a topic for another discussion.

The question that bothers me is why would someone travel at least 5 light years just to show some idiots how to light a fire, get into a fight, flood everything and, in the end, decide it's time to go back home, never to return.


I'm going to roll with this for a sec because there's no one else on this forum who'll talk to me (that means you, Hugh).

An interesting possibility. You couldn't have possibly proposed this at a better time; I'm reading Ringworld right now. If aliens came here, then they came here because they were looking for intelligent life on other planets (which I'm sure we'll do also as soon as we get faster-than-light speed travel or find a wormhole or something), found us, and gave us stuff to speed up our technology. However, there's a pretty big leap of faith required to say that aliens came here and taught us stuff; it's not nearly as cut and dry as you make it out to be. A couple of mayan statues look like human astronauts; why not alien astronauts? Also, there is a coherent theory of how the Egyptians build the pyramids. It's similar to the "ramp" idea, but instead of a straight ramp going outwards, it was a ramp that spiraled around the pyramid itself. Here's a page I've found on Google. The pictures look pretty good, though I haven't read the article itself. http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/pyramidlifts.htm. And besides, why would they care about building pyramids for us? What could we possibly learn from something like that?

If there were aliens that visited us back then, they're either long-since dead or stopped caring about us. If they were alive/cared, then as soon as we went to the moon they would have flown over here with technology and peace treaties.
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Re: Does God exist?

Postby malkuth » Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:21 pm

However, there's a pretty big leap of faith required to say that aliens came here and taught us stuff; it's not nearly as cut and dry as you make it out to be.


I was not speculating what they where doing here. That is the question I want someone to answer. I was merely trying to turn the course of this discussion away from this pointless philosophical chit chat.

Also, there is a coherent theory of how the Egyptians build the pyramids. It's similar to the "ramp" idea, but instead of a straight ramp going outwards, it was a ramp that spiraled around the pyramid itself.


I know there are a lot of semi possible theories but they all have loop holes in them. For example, the nearest quarry to a pyramid is like what, 200 miles away. The scriptures say that the Cheops's pyramid was built within 20 years. This would mean that they had to put one 5 ton block every 3.5 minutes 24h a day. I'm sure i don't need to underline how impossible this is. And also, it is a Biblical lie that the Jews where building pyramids for the Egyptians. The Egyptians didn't have slaves. Pyramid engineers and labor workers where all paid professionals.

But this is just one example. There are numerous more that suggest that an alien civilization was involved in the history of man. Even the Bible is filled with references to aliens.
It is so logical that the people back then couldn't describe what they are seeing. That's why today we have various holy books
with a lot of metaphysical mambo jumbo.
If you haven't already, I suggest that you read the book 'In search of ancient mysteries', or watch the documentary.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... rch=Search

It really changed my views on the world.
Other planes lie beyond the reach of normal sense and common roads

But they are no less real than what we see or touch or feel

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